Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 25 26 [27] 28 29 ... 34

Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 15948 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Arsenius

Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2018, 02:05:08 PM »
Catechumens are considered members of the Church and have always been given full Christian burial from the Patristic age down to the present day in the Christian East. Anyone who claims our father of among the saints, St. John Chrysostom as an advocate for the Latin heterodoxy of Feenyism needs to look at the teaching of the Eastern fathers and the Eastern churches as a whole. To this day there is no rush in the Orthodox catechumenate. The Eastern Christian (i.e. Patristic) understanding of salvation is significantly different than the understanding that has mythologized and dogmatized by the Latin West after the schism. 
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2018, 02:14:54 PM »
Quote from: Arsenius on June 11, 2018, 02:05:08 PM
Catechumens are considered members of the Church

Completely false.

St. Robert Bellarmine:
Quote
The Church is one, not twofold, and this one true [Catholic] Church is the assembly of men UNITED IN THE PROFESSION OF THE SAME CHRISTIAN FAITH AND IN THE COMMUNION OF THE SAME SACRAMENTS, under the rule of legitimate pastors, and in particular, that of the one Vicar of Christ on earth, the Roman Pontiff. First part excludes all infidels, those who were never in the Church such as Jews, Turks, and pagans, or those who once were in it and later fell away, like the heretics and apostates. THE SECOND PART EXCLUDES THE CATECHUMENS and excommunicated, SINCE THE FORMER ARE NOT ADMITTED TO THE SACRAMENTS and the latter are excluded from them…"[De Ecclesia Militante, Book III, Ch. 2, opera omnia, Naples 1872, p. 75]

Dr. Ludwig Ott:
Quote
Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Membership in the Church, p. 309: “3. Catechumens are not to be counted among the members of the Church… The Church claims no jurisdiction over them (D 895). The Fathers draw a sharp line of separation between Catechumens and ‘the faithful.’”
Logged

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2018, 02:17:19 PM »
Quote from: Arsenius on June 11, 2018, 02:05:08 PM
The Eastern Christian (i.e. Patristic) understanding of salvation is significantly different than the understanding that has mythologized and dogmatized by the Latin West after the schism.

False.  Besides, there were no Latin/Western Fathers?  Fathers East and West unanimously held that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, and several Eastern Church Fathers explicitly rejected the notion of Baptism of Desire, stating that the Sacramental seal is necessary for the beatific vision.
Logged

Offline Arsenius

Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2018, 02:22:18 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2018, 02:14:54 PM
Completely false.

St. Robert Bellarmine:
You cut off my sentence midway and replied to a straw man. Note the qualification at the end of my sentence: in the Christian East. That goes for both pre- and post- schism, whether in communion with the Bishop of Rome or not. Actually, allow me to apologize and modify my original statement - catechumens are considered Christians from the moment they enter the catechumenate. Whether or not this actually means they are members of the church, I can't say as I haven't done enough sifting through polemic and semantic controversies. 

Quote
Fathers East and West unanimously held that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, and several Eastern Church Fathers explicitly rejected the notion of Baptism of Desire, stating that the Sacramental seal is necessary for the beatific vision.

Do you realize that the practically unanimous teaching of the Eastern Fathers/Church is that the souls in Hades can be saved before the Final Judgement? So in a sense, even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't necessarily lead to the same conclusion of Feenyism, i.e. that the unbaptized are condemned to eternal hell. At least not according to the Christian East.
Logged

Offline Banezian

Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2018, 02:50:46 PM »
"But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

St. Alphonsus Liguori 
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 25 26 [27] 28 29 ... 34
« previous next »