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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 10999 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2018, 08:40:58 AM »
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    • So it's Tridentine Catholic ecclesiology that the Church is a visible society.  Church also teaches that only the baptized who profess the true faith and are in submission to the Holy Father are members of the Church.  Fenton admits that this is the teaching of the Church.  So you cannot say that those who do not meet these criteria are MEMBERS of the Church.

    So what does Fenton do to posit the salvation of non-members?  He claims that people can invisibly belong to the visible Church.  When the Church teaches that there can be no salvation outside "the Church of the faithful", he says that the non-faithful can somehow be within the Church of the faithful.  So he makes a distinction between being PART OF the Church and being WITHIN the Church (since the EENS formlations use the latter expression).

    He creates something that I call "undigested hamburger" ecclesiology.  It's like a piece of food that I eat which sits undigested in my stomach but is not actually part of my body.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #76 on: June 09, 2018, 09:10:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 09, 2018, 06:27:20 AM
    I'm not a Protestant like a good number of folks here. I don't use my own judgment to interpret these things. These things are to be understood in the way the Church understands. Your rhetoric is meaningless
    The Church understands it in the words that She used to express it at the time it was declared. If there was more to say She would have said it at that time.  Fr. Fenton and the modern "theologians" felt that there was more to say and indeed add to it under the guise of a better understanding.  It is called Modernism.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #77 on: June 09, 2018, 11:39:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2018, 08:40:58 AM
    So it's Tridentine Catholic ecclesiology that the Church is a visible society.  Church also teaches that only the baptized who profess the true faith and are in submission to the Holy Father are members of the Church.  Fenton admits that this is the teaching of the Church.  So you cannot say that those who do not meet these criteria are MEMBERS of the Church.

    So what does Fenton do to posit the salvation of non-members?  He claims that people can invisibly belong to the visible Church.  When the Church teaches that there can be no salvation outside "the Church of the faithful", he says that the non-faithful can somehow be within the Church of the faithful.  So he makes a distinction between being PART OF the Church and being WITHIN the Church (since the EENS formlations use the latter expression).

    He creates something that I call "undigested hamburger" ecclesiology.  It's like a piece of food that I eat which sits undigested in my stomach but is not actually part of my body.
    I look at it like this
    We might say that the Church is like a house. Protestants/Orthodox are in the house if they are validly baptized. However, when they become material heretics,  it is as if they have set up a tent inside the house, and instead of living directly in the house, they live in a tent within the house. Are they still in the house? Yes, and they will be protected from the coming storm because of it, but it's  our job to get them out of their tents. 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #78 on: June 09, 2018, 11:42:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2018, 08:36:31 AM
    So, wrong again.  Criteria #2 and #3 for membership (as taught by St. Robert Bellarmine and also the Magisterium) are profession of the true faith and submission to the Holy Father.

    At best people can argue, as Fenton does, that non-members can be somehow "within" the Church.  I find the argument preposterous, but you can't say that either non-baptized or professed heretics or public schismatics are MEMBERS of the Church.  Fenton realizes this and makes no such claim.  Membership refers to the visible society of the Church, and in no way do Prots and Orthodox belong to said visible society.
    A valid baptism does make one part of the visible Church. A Protestant/Orthodox baby who is baptized becomes a member of the visible Church
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #79 on: June 09, 2018, 11:45:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 09, 2018, 11:42:28 AM
    A valid baptism does make one part of the visible Church. A Protestant/Orthodox baby who is baptized becomes a member of the visible Church

    St. Augustine elaborates on that point:

    Quote
    Baptism does not profit a man outside unity with the Church ... For many heretics also possess this Sacrament but not the fruits of salvation ... The benefits which flow from Baptism are necessarily fruits which belong to the true Church alone. Children Baptized in other communions cease to be members of the Church when, after reaching the age of reason, they make formal profession of heresy, as, for example, by receiving communion in a non-Catholic Church.

    Quote
    Although among heretics and schismatics there is the same Baptism, nevertheless, the remission of sins is not operative among them because of the very rottenness of discord and wickedness of dissension ... Baptism was in them, but it did not profit them outside the Church ... Outside the Church, Baptism works death because of discord.

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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #80 on: June 09, 2018, 11:50:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on June 09, 2018, 11:45:40 AM
    St. Augustine elaborates on that point:
    I agree with that, if the heresy in question is formal, not material 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #81 on: June 09, 2018, 12:08:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 09, 2018, 11:50:18 AM
    I agree with that, if the heresy in question is formal, not material

    Do you think it is necessary for a material heretic to be converted?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #82 on: June 09, 2018, 12:19:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 09, 2018, 11:42:28 AM
    A valid baptism does make one part of the visible Church. A Protestant/Orthodox baby who is baptized becomes a member of the visible Church

    Obviously we're talking about adults here.  Adult Protestants/Orthodox violate the requirements for membership ... you know those classic criteria taught by St. Robert Bellarmine.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #83 on: June 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 09, 2018, 11:39:33 AM
    However, when they become material heretics,  it is as if they have set up a tent inside the house, and instead of living directly in the house, they live in a tent within the house.

    Once they reach the age of reason and become heretics, they are not material heretics because their entire formal motive of faith is absent, and that is what defines formal heresy.  You promote the Vatican II line that sincerity = "material heresy".  Faith can be lacking even inculpably.  You're saying exactly the same things that Vatican II taught, and so you have no business being a Traditional Catholic.

    Let's say a person were baptized and then somehow ended up being raised in the jungle without any exposure to faith.  Once that person reaches the age of reason, the faith must be explicitly embraced or else the infused virtue dies.  It does not merely discontinue when there's an active sin against the faith.  It can be lacking by omission.  Same thing happens with Protestants.  When they grow up and fail to embrace the Catholic faith with the requisite formal motive of faith, it's the same case as of the baptized child growing up pagan.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #84 on: June 09, 2018, 12:31:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
    Faith can be lacking even inculpably.

    /thread


    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3005.htm#article3


    Article 3. Whether a man who disbelieves one article of faith, can have lifeless faith in the other articles?


    Quote
    I answer that, Neither living nor lifeless faith remains in a heretic who disbelieves one article of faith.

    The reason of this is that the species of every habit depends on the formal aspect of the object, without which the species of the habit cannot remain. Now the formal object of faith is the First Truth, as manifested in Holy Writ and the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth. Consequently whoever does not adhere, as to an infallible and Divine rule, to the teaching of the Church, which proceeds from the First Truth manifested in Holy Writ, has not the habit of faith, but holds that which is of faith otherwise than by faith. Even so, it is evident that a man whose mind holds a conclusion without knowing how it is proved, has not scientific knowledge, but merely an opinion about it. Now it is manifest that he who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things; but if he is not obstinate, he is no longer in heresy but only in error. Therefore it is clear that such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will.

    Both the non-Catholic in heresy and the non-Catholic in error do not have the Catholic rule of faith.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #85 on: June 09, 2018, 12:35:53 PM »
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    • Regarding a material heretic denying a deeper dogma, not something basic like the Trinity, Incarnation, or the Papacy, ect guilt is presumed until innocence is proven.

    Canon 2200.2, 1917 Code of Canon Law:
    “When an external violation of the law has been committed, malice is presumed in the external forum until the contrary is proven.”

    Innocent IV, First Council of Lyons, 1245:
    “The civil law declares that those are to be regarded as heretics, and ought to be subject to the sentences issued against them, who even on slight evidence are found to have strayed from the judgment and path of the Catholic religion.”



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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #86 on: June 09, 2018, 12:37:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
    Once they reach the age of reason and become heretics, they are not material heretics because their entire formal motive of faith is absent, and that is what defines formal heresy.  You promote the Vatican II line that sincerity = "material heresy".  Faith can be lacking even inculpably.  You're saying exactly the same things that Vatican II taught, and so you have no business being a Traditional Catholic.

    If what Banzenian says is true, then there is absolutely no heretical error found in Vatican II.

    Protestant and Orthodox are part of the "soul" of the Church in virtue of their Baptism, so they can be saved. Membership in the Church could be visible or invisible. Communion with the True Church could perfect or imperfect. The invincible ignorant in the middle of nowhere can also be saved. Pretty much anyone in the world could be said to be in "material" heresy or salvific ignorance at the point of death. Specially the "nice" guy next door.

    They did not know that the Roman Catholic Church was the true one; but if they DID know, they would have entered :facepalm:.  Forget St. Thomas saying that invincible ignorance is actually a just punishment for sin. What type of logic is that? Basically, the only condemned soul in Hell is Judas. And there have been theological attempts in the XX century to even reconcile Judas!.

    Hell is empty for this folks. Hey, Hell does not even exist as an actual place.  
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #87 on: June 09, 2018, 12:41:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: trad123 on June 09, 2018, 12:31:42 PM
    /thread


    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3005.htm#article3


    Article 3. Whether a man who disbelieves one article of faith, can have lifeless faith in the other articles?


    Both the non-Catholic in heresy and the non-Catholic in error do not have the Catholic rule of faith.

    Yep, the anti-Feeneyites always conflate formal heresy with "insincerity" ... and material heresy with "sincerity".  Sincerity (or lack thereof) have nothing to do with the formal vs. material distinction.  It has to do with whether or not the proper formal motive of faith is present (as taught by St. Thomas in your citation).
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #88 on: June 09, 2018, 12:43:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on June 09, 2018, 12:37:28 PM
    If what Banzenian says is true, then there is absolutely no heretical error found in Vatican II.

    In fact, Banzenian goes farther than most Traditional Catholics in going along with Vatican II.  Like Vatican II, he grants the presumption of materiality to Protestants and Orthodox.  At least most Traditional Catholics hold that formality must be presumed in the external forum (as cited by Ovenbird), and these non-members must be treated accordingly.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #89 on: June 09, 2018, 12:49:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2018, 12:21:59 PM
    Once that person reaches the age of reason, the faith must be explicitly embraced or else the infused virtue dies.

    St Thomas, in the citation from trad123 refers to this as the habit (active virtue) of faith.  This must be developed once the person reaches the age of reason, or else the merely infused virtue of faith received at Baptism withers away.
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