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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 10884 times)

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Offline Banezian

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2018, 10:37:36 PM »
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  • You must have not read my comment properly. I suggest you reread it. I know the Dimond's say that all non-Catholics are damned, they stretch the definition of a Catholic like I said.

    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholicchurch/quotes-refute-radical-schismatics/#.WxtIeiApAuU

    Dimonds "Notice that this dogmatic creed [Athanasian Creed] declares that the Catholic faith, in terms of its simplest components (i.e. what you would absolutely have to tell every man above reason without exception before baptism and so that he could be saved and have the Catholic faith) is the Trinity and the Incarnation. No other dogma can be rejected, of course, but these are the only two which must be positively known by all above reason. Notice that this dogmatic creed uses the phrase “whoever wishes” or wills to be saved, indicating that it is speaking of those above reason...So if a person has been baptized as an infant, and hits the age of reason in a family where his parents are heretics or schismatics, he can certainly be Catholic, if he has faith in the Trinity and Incarnation and doesn’t obstinately reject any other Catholic teaching."
    Very strange. I've watched a number of their videos, and they've said things to the effect of "If you deny one article of the Faith, you deny the whole Faith" Are you sure your link represent their current view? I will email them tomorrow. Can you go ahead and answer my question?
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #62 on: June 09, 2018, 01:12:43 AM »
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  • Sedes reject the Papacy too, and I consider them members of the Church. ( they may believe that there is a Papacy, but by reject the Pope, they are esentialy in the same boat as the Orthodox)The Orthodox do not deny the Immaculate Conception per se. They're view of original sin is totally different from ours The Church has gotten lax on divorce as well, so it's not fair for you to use that against the Orthodox.
    You are not making sense. Maybe you need to go study some more and clarify your thinking.
    .

    Sedes do not reject the papacy. You do  understand that  sedes are sedes because they believe in the papacy. How would they otherwise claim that the Seat is vacant, if they don't believe there is a Seat. So they are not "in the same boat" as the Orthodox. Sedes are Catholic, Orthodox are "out of the boat" altogether.
    .

    Of course a "view of original sin (which) is totally different from ours" is not permitted to a Catholic and so would put him "outside the boat".
    .
    The Church has gotten lax on divorce as well, so it's not fair for you to use that against the Orthodox.
    .
    Now you are really grasping at straws. Can you honestly believe that the Church allows several tries at marriage - to a second and third person but won't allow for a fourth? Marriage is a lifelong commitment in the Catholic Church. Is it being unfair to the Orthodox to make that claim?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #63 on: June 09, 2018, 01:33:35 AM »
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  • You are not making sense. Maybe you need to go study some more and clarify your thinking.
    .

    Sedes do not reject the papacy. You do  understand that  sedes are sedes because they believe in the papacy. How would they otherwise claim that the Seat is vacant, if they don't believe there is a Seat. So they are not "in the same boat" as the Orthodox. Sedes are Catholic, Orthodox are "out of the boat" altogether.
    .

    Of course a "view of original sin (which) is totally different from ours" is not permitted to a Catholic and so would put him "outside the boat".
    .
    The Church has gotten lax on divorce as well, so it's not fair for you to use that against the Orthodox.
    .
    Now you are really grasping at straws. Can you honestly believe that the Church allows several tries at marriage - to a second and third person but won't allow for a fourth? Marriage is a lifelong commitment in the Catholic Church. Is it being unfair to the Orthodox to make that claim?
    Sedes believe that there is a Papacy, but they are in the same boat as the Orthodox because they reject the Pope and his authority. In many cases they are actually worse than the Orthodox. At least the Orthodox have valid orders. The orders of many sede priests are doubtful at best. Their view of Original Sin is permitted. Eastern Catholics hold the exact same view. The Orthodox are wrong in their view of marriage, but the Church does the same thing these days. At least the Orthodox are honest and call it a divorce instead of calling it an "annulment" and pretending the marriage never happened  
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #64 on: June 09, 2018, 01:54:49 AM »
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  • You are not making sense. Maybe you need to go study some more and clarify your thinking.
    .

    Sedes do not reject the papacy. You do  understand that  sedes are sedes because they believe in the papacy. How would they otherwise claim that the Seat is vacant, if they don't believe there is a Seat. So they are not "in the same boat" as the Orthodox. Sedes are Catholic, Orthodox are "out of the boat" altogether.
    .

    Of course a "view of original sin (which) is totally different from ours" is not permitted to a Catholic and so would put him "outside the boat".
    .
    The Church has gotten lax on divorce as well, so it's not fair for you to use that against the Orthodox.
    .
    Now you are really grasping at straws. Can you honestly believe that the Church allows several tries at marriage - to a second and third person but won't allow for a fourth? Marriage is a lifelong commitment in the Catholic Church. Is it being unfair to the Orthodox to make that claim?
    Just wondering, have you ever read any Orthodox theologians? Do you know any Orthodox Christians? Many Trad Catholics I know love to condemn everyone who isn't exactly like them, and they almost always tell me they know nothing about the traditions in question. The Russian Orthodox suffered greatly during the  Soviet crisis, and produced many martyrs for Christ. The Coptic Orthodox Christians die daily in Egypt. It's easy for sheltered Trads living in America to make these judgments, but I'd ask you to look in the mirror and think whether you could go through what some of these people have endured for Christ 
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #65 on: June 09, 2018, 02:10:53 AM »
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  • Just wondering, have you ever read any Orthodox theologians? Do you know any Orthodox Christians? Many Trad Catholics I know love to condemn everyone who isn't exactly like them, and they almost always tell me they know nothing about the traditions in question. The Russian Orthodox suffered greatly during the  Soviet crisis, and produced many martyrs for Christ. The Coptic Orthodox Christians die daily in Egypt. It's easy for sheltered Trads living in America to make these judgments, but I'd ask you to look in the mirror and think whether you could go through what some of these people have endured for Christ
    I can see you are getting desperate! 
    What do you know of me, my history, my background, what I have endured  - practically nothing. I am not a sheltered Trad living in America and I certainly don't fit your imaginings. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #66 on: June 09, 2018, 02:18:14 AM »
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  • I can see you are getting desperate!
    What do you know of me, my history, my background, what I have endured  - practically nothing. I am not a sheltered Trad living in America and I certainly don't fit your imaginings.
    Your reading comprehension is quite poor. I didn't say you were any of those things. I made the comment in passing because I've seen it with many, many Trads.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #67 on: June 09, 2018, 02:59:06 AM »
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  • Your reading comprehension is quite poor. I didn't say you were any of those things. I made the comment in passing because I've seen it with many, many Trads.
    Your comment was a direct response to my post (reply #72 from memory). In fact you quoted it. So you need to insult me saying my reading comprehension is poor. Au contraire. You can't hold up under the correction here so you need to insult. Not gentlemanly. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #68 on: June 09, 2018, 03:12:57 AM »
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  • Your comment was a direct response to my post (reply #72 from memory). In fact you quoted it. So you need to insult me saying my reading comprehension is poor. Au contraire. You can't hold up under the correction here so you need to insult. Not gentlemanly.
    I'm not insulting you, I'm just fed up with being called a heretic by  heretical Feeneyites and schismatic sedes. I asked what you knew about the Orthodox, and you take it to mean that I'm assuming stuff about you. I never claimed to know a thing about you or your background. I thought this was a forum of the Resistance. It seems more like a haven for sedes and Feeneyites.  I have a good feeling Bp. Williamson would be on my side in this discussion ( he may not agree with me on all points, but he's almost certainly closer to me than a good number of radicals here)
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #69 on: June 09, 2018, 03:44:13 AM »
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  • Just to clarify: CathInfo claims to be a  
    Traditional Catholic Forum
    A message board for SSPX, Resistance and other traditional Catholics.
    so it's not quite correct to call it a forum of the Resistance 
    .
    I don't fit any category, SSPX, Resistance, Sedevacantist, Feeneyite. I'm just Catholic and pray to die Catholic.
    .
    I can see no sense in continuing to post on this thread.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #70 on: June 09, 2018, 04:34:29 AM »
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  • Banezian has made it obvious in every way that: He has been brainwashed to think against reading dogmas and words as they are written, which goes contrary to his own common sense and thus he has become a young man who does not know what he believes. His hero, "interpreters" of the dogmas on EENS given to him by his professors, are two theologians from the 20th century, one of which (his Avatar picture) taught salvation by belief in a God that rewards, that is, salvation for  Mohamedans, Hindus Jews, indeed any non-Catholic, non-baptized, even if they have no desire to be baptized, no desire to be Catholic, no belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity.

    He is now like the cat that fell asleep and dreamed he was a man dreaming that he was a cat, and when he woke up, he did not know if he was a man or a cat.


    I feel sorry for him, for even he does not believe what he says.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #71 on: June 09, 2018, 04:48:36 AM »
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  • In another thread, I wrote this in reply to a gentleman who claimed to be a strict follower of the teaching of St. Thomas, that he restricted his belief in baptism of desire to the catechumen, to a person with explicit desire to be a baptized Catholic, with belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity:


    Quote
    Last Tradhican wrote:
    I do not know what planet you have been living in, but in this planet, what I wrote is exactly what 99% of all those that defend baptism of desire believe. In all of my years of discussions with people here on CI and elsewhere,  the conclusion is that they only hide behind the defense of baptism of desire of the catechumen, when they actual oppose St. Thomas, and teach that people can be saved without any desire to be baptized or Catholic and without  belief in the Incarnation (that Jesus Christ is God) and the Holy Trinity. The SSPX, and all the sede groups (Cekada is one of them) teach the same. It is what Abp. Lefebvre learned, believed and taught all of his ordained like Cekada.


    If you are the rare individual (I have only met one in my life) that condemns them as false BODers, then I congratulate you. I have nothing against anyone that teaches the innocuous theory of the baptism of desire of the catechumen of St. Thomas. However, like I said, I have only met one person in 15 years that restricted his belief to BOD of the catechumen and that condemned the teaching of salvation by belief in a God that rewards. Concerning this question, in our times, a real Catholic should spend his time fighting those that teach salvation by belief in a God that rewards, rather than attacking what they call the "Feeneyites". In my long experience, and as a matter of fact, I have found that all of those writers who call people Feeneyites, ALL believe that non-Catholics can be saved without any desire to be baptized or Catholic and without  belief in the Incarnation (that Jesus Christ is God) and the Holy Trinity.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #72 on: June 09, 2018, 05:10:14 AM »
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  • The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics originally published in 1891

    by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead

    from Lesson 11: On the Church

    * 121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?



    A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.



    Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.



    In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.



    Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?



    If he was  validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister—not being a true priest—has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition—that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic—with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts—might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.



    If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.



    I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.



    I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.



    I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.



    from Lesson 14: On Baptism

    154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?



    A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.



    Those who through no fault of theirs die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven. God might have created us for a purely natural and material end, so that we would live forever upon the earth and be naturally happy with the good things God would give us. But then we would never have known of Heaven or God as we do now. Such happiness on earth would be nothing compared to the delights of Heaven and the presence of God; so that, now, since God has given us, through His holy revelations, a knowledge of Himself and Heaven, we would be miserable if left always upon the earth. Those, then, who die without Baptism do not know what they have lost, and are naturally happy; but we who know all they have lost for want of Baptism know how very unfortunate they are.



    Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family—father, mother, and children—may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity—just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth.



    157. Q. How many kinds of Baptism are there?



    A. There are three kinds of Baptism: Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.



    158. Q. What is Baptism of water?



    A. Baptism of water is that which is given by pouring water on the head of the person to be baptized, and saying at the same time, “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”



    159. Q. What is Baptism of desire?



    A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.



    “Ardent wish” by one who has no opportunity of being baptized—for no one can baptize himself. He must be sorry for his sins and have the desire of receiving the Baptism of water as soon as he can; just as a person in mortal sin and without a priest to absolve him may, when in danger of death, save his soul from Hell by an act of perfect contrition and the firm resolution of going to confession as soon as possible....



    160. Q. What is Baptism of blood?



    A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood for the faith of Christ.



    Baptism of blood, called martyrdom, is received by those who were not baptized with water, but were put to death for their Catholic faith. This takes place even nowadays in pagan countries where the missionaries are trying to convert the poor natives. These pagans have to be instructed before they are baptized. They do everything required of them, let us suppose, and are waiting for the day of Baptism. Those who are being thus instructed are called Catechumens. Someday, while they are attending their instructions, the enemies of religion rush down upon them and put them to death. They do not resist, but willingly suffer death for the sake of the true religion. They are martyrs then and are baptized in their own blood; although, as we said above, blood would not do for an ordinary Baptism even when we could not get water; so that if a person drew blood from his own body and asked to be baptized with it, the Baptism would not be valid. Neither would they be martyrs if put to death not for religion or virtue but for some other reason—say political.



    161. Q. Is Baptism of desire or blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?



    A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #73 on: June 09, 2018, 06:27:20 AM »
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  • Banezian has made it obvious in every way that: He has been brainwashed to think against reading dogmas and words as they are written, which goes contrary to his own common sense and thus he has become a young man who does not know what he believes. His hero, "interpreters" of the dogmas on EENS given to him by his professors, are two theologians from the 20th century, one of which (his Avatar picture) taught salvation by belief in a God that rewards, that is, salvation for  Mohamedans, Hindus Jews, indeed any non-Catholic, non-baptized, even if they have no desire to be baptized, no desire to be Catholic, no belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity.

    He is now like the cat that fell asleep and dreamed he was a man dreaming that he was a cat, and when he woke up, he did not know if he was a man or a cat.


    I feel sorry for him, for even he does not believe what he says.
    I'm not a Protestant like a good number of folks here. I don't use my own judgment to interpret these things. These things are to be understood in the way the Church understands. Your rhetoric is meaningless 
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #74 on: June 09, 2018, 08:36:31 AM »
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  • Agreed, and Protestants/Orthodox who are validly baptized are members of the Church

    So, wrong again.  Criteria #2 and #3 for membership (as taught by St. Robert Bellarmine and also the Magisterium) are profession of the true faith and submission to the Holy Father.

    At best people can argue, as Fenton does, that non-members can be somehow "within" the Church.  I find the argument preposterous, but you can't say that either non-baptized or professed heretics or public schismatics are MEMBERS of the Church.  Fenton realizes this and makes no such claim.  Membership refers to the visible society of the Church, and in no way do Prots and Orthodox belong to said visible society.