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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 11216 times)

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Offline Cantarella

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2018, 09:46:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:31:53 PM
    People who are validly baptized and  material heretics

    Just until the age of reason, then they become formal heretics.

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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #46 on: June 08, 2018, 09:48:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:45:19 PM
    That quote must be understood in the way the Church understands it. Answer my question. Are non-sedes heretics?
    I have provided many other quotes showing how the Church understands it. You reject this. You answer mine first and then I will answer yours. What do you think the Church means by this (grabs popcorn)
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #47 on: June 08, 2018, 09:48:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on June 08, 2018, 09:46:56 PM
    Just until the age of reason, then they become formal heretics.
    No. In order to become formal heretics, they must understand and reject the teachings of the Church
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #48 on: June 08, 2018, 09:51:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 09:48:24 PM
    I have provided many other quotes showing how the Church understands it. You reject this. You answer mine first and then I will answer yours. What do you think the Church means by this (grabs popcorn)
    I already answered you. 
    "Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution"

    That is my position. Now answer my question. Are non-sedes heretics? 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #49 on: June 08, 2018, 09:51:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:48:55 PM
    No. In order to become formal heretics, they must understand and reject the teachings of the Church

    Are you saying that the Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox are also members of the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" the Nicene Creed tells us we must believe in, by virtue of their Baptism alone?
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #50 on: June 08, 2018, 09:54:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on June 08, 2018, 09:51:44 PM
    Are you saying that the Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox are also members of the "One, Holy, Catholic and apostolic Church" the Nicene Creed tells us we must believe in, by virtue of their Baptism alone?
    Yes, as long as they are not formal heretics.
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #51 on: June 08, 2018, 09:56:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:51:11 PM
    I already answered you.
    "Theologians in general are inclined to fill out what Scripture and tradition tell us by distinguishing the means of salvation given to Catholics from those that are given men of good will beyond the borders of the Church. …If we are treating of all Christians, of all who have been baptized, Catholic, schismatic, Protestant, it is more probable, theologians generally say, that the great number is saved. First, the number of infants who die in the state of grace before reaching the age of reason is very great. Secondly, many Protestants, being today in good faith, can be reconciled to God by an act of contrition, particularly in danger of death. Thirdly, schismatics can receive a valid absolution"

    That is my position. Now answer my question. Are non-sedes heretics?
    You didn't answer the quote I am using. Here is another that condemns the Protestants and "Orthodox" as on the road to hell.

    Pius IX, Vatican Council I, 1870, Sess. 4, Chap. 3, ex cathedra: "… all the faithful of Christ must believe that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church... Furthermore We teach and declare that the Roman Church, by the disposition of the Lord, holds the sovereignty of ordinary power over all others… This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation." (Denz. 1826-1827)


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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #52 on: June 08, 2018, 09:56:45 PM »
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    • Banezian, how can you call Orthodox "members of the Church" when they only recognise seven Ecuмenical councils, the "final" one being in 787AD?
    .
    And they reject the papacy outright.
    .
    And they reject the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church, such as the Immaculate Conception 
    .
    and allow for up to two divorces and a third "marriage" before they say, Basta!
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    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #53 on: June 08, 2018, 09:58:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 09:54:24 PM
    Yes, as long as they are not formal heretics.
    That is like saying a murderer is good as long as he is not a murderer. Does that make sense? no. You are calling them Protestants therefore they are not Catholic because they obstinately reject Catholic teachings and that is the definition of a heretic.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #54 on: June 08, 2018, 10:01:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on June 08, 2018, 09:56:45 PM
    Banezian, how can you call Orthodox "members of the Church" when they only recognise seven Ecuмenical councils, the "final" one being in 787AD?
    .
    And they reject the papacy outright.
    .
    And they reject the dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church, such as the Immaculate Conception and allow for up to two divorces and a third "marriage" before they say, Basta!
    Sedes reject the Papacy too, and I consider them members of the Church. ( they may believe that there is a Papacy, but by reject the Pope, they are esentialy in the same boat as the Orthodox)The Orthodox do not deny the Immaculate Conception per se. They're view of original sin is totally different from ours The Church has gotten lax on divorce as well, so it's not fair for you to use that against the Orthodox. 
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #55 on: June 08, 2018, 10:03:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 10:01:26 PM
    Sedes reject the Papacy too, and I consider them members of the Church. ( they may believe that there is a Papacy, but by reject the Pope, they are esentialy in the same boat as the Orthodox)The Orthodox do not deny the Immaculate Conception per se. They're view of original sin is totally different from ours The Church has gotten lax on divorce as well, so it's not fair for you to use that against the Orthodox.
    You are saying that those who deny Catholic doctrines are in the Church which is a heresy. I have profited several infallible quotes to make the Catholic position clear. You can only quote fallible heretics to back up your heresies.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #56 on: June 08, 2018, 10:05:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 09:56:06 PM
    You didn't answer the quote I am using. Here is another that condemns the Protestants and "Orthodox" as on the road to hell.

    Pius IX, Vatican Council I, 1870, Sess. 4, Chap. 3, ex cathedra: "… all the faithful of Christ must believe that the Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world, and the Pontiff of Rome himself is the successor of the blessed Peter, the chief of the apostles, and is the true vicar of Christ and head of the whole Church... Furthermore We teach and declare that the Roman Church, by the disposition of the Lord, holds the sovereignty of ordinary power over all others… This is the doctrine of Catholic truth from which no one can deviate and keep his faith and salvation." (Denz. 1826-1827)
    No one can fully understand what the Church teaches on this and be saved. I agree. That would make them a formal heretic. Why won't you answer my question?
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #57 on: June 08, 2018, 10:06:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 10:03:43 PM
    You are saying that those who deny Catholic doctrines are in the Church which is a heresy. I have profited several infallible quotes to make the Catholic position clear. You can only quote fallible heretics to back up your heresies.
    If they deny it and do not understand it, they are in the Church
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ovenbird

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #58 on: June 08, 2018, 10:12:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 10:05:35 PM
    No one can fully understand what the Church teaches on this and be saved. I agree. That would make them a formal heretic. Why won't you answer my question?
    Ok, so you are saying that certain Protestants are not heretics and also not Catholic. Therefore you are asserting that they can deny Catholic dogma and be non-heretical non-Catholics. That makes no sense with what the Church infallibly teaches. The Dimond brothers (the most famous sedevacantist's probably) hold to a heresy that attendees of non-Catholic Church's such as Protestant Church's can be Catholics without knowing it if they believe in the only essential mysteries of the Trinity and the Incarnation and do not culpably doubt or deny any other dogma of the Catholic Church. Such is of course heretical nonsense but that is what they believe. You, on the other hand, say that such are Protestant unlike the Dimonds who say they are Catholics without knowing it. Both forms are heretical.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #59 on: June 08, 2018, 10:18:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ovenbird on June 08, 2018, 10:12:22 PM
    Ok, so you are saying that certain Protestants are not heretics and also not Catholic. Therefore you are asserting that they can deny Catholic dogma and be non-heretical non-Catholics. That makes no sense with what the Church infallibly teaches. The Dimond brothers (the most famous sedevacantist's probably) hold to a heresy that attendees of non-Catholic Church's such as Protestant Church's can be Catholics without knowing it if they believe in the only essential mysteries of the Trinity and the Incarnation and do not culpably doubt or deny any other dogma of the Catholic Church. Such is of course heretical nonsense but that is what they believe. You, on the other hand, say that such are Protestant unlike the Dimonds who say they are Catholics without knowing it. Both forms are heretical.
    You're a fool. The Dimonds say that ALL non-Catholics will be damned. They hold your position. I would say that these Prots/Orthodox are Catholic insofar as they are members of the Church. But they are material heretics due to their Protestantism. I answered you. Keep your word and ANSWER MY QUESTION. Are all  non-sedes heretics?
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9
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