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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 10875 times)

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Offline Banezian

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2018, 07:48:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2018, 07:43:51 PM
    St. Alphonsus completely misconstrues the authority of the "de presbytero non baptizato".  This was not a papal teaching to the Universal Church.  Otherwise, a very similar letter condemns as heretical his own teaching that people who are saved by BoD do not receive a complete remission of the temporal punishment due to sin.  St. Thomas excoriates the same Pope Innocent who in yet another similar letter promotes the heretical position that the Consecration at Mass can be valid even if the priest merely thinks the words of consecration.

    As for the Council of Trent, the "cannot without" phraseology teaches necessary cause but not necessarily sufficient cause for justification.

    I cannot stay alive without water.  True statement.   Does this mean that water alone suffices to keep me alive?  That I can live without also having food?  Of course not.  Same phraseology is used in Trent.
    And what makes you think you know the mind of the Church better than he did? Who the heck are you to judge St. Alphonsus? Just out of curiosity, which sede group are you a part of?
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #151 on: June 11, 2018, 07:51:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2018, 07:39:45 PM
    Then he'd be a heretic.  Except that he's not.  NOBODY in the New Covenant can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even if you speculatively posit the existence of BoD, EVEN IN BOD the SACRAMENT remains the instrumental cause of justification operating through the desire for it.  Otherwise, you'd be a Pelagian who believes that the subjective desire of itself can be salvific ex opere operantis.
    Sure. No one disagrees with you there. He did teach that people could be saved without water Baptism
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #152 on: June 11, 2018, 07:56:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 11, 2018, 07:51:11 PM
    Sure. No one disagrees with you there. He did teach that people could be saved without water Baptism

    That's still imprecise.  He teaches that people can be saved without the in re reception of water Baptism, or without actually receiving the water of Baptism.  "water Baptism" is merely synonymous with the Sacrament of Baptism.

    In any case, if BoDers would be a little more precise in their language, they could at least avoid giving the impression that they reject Catholic teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation by necessity of means.  When you use language like "without" or that people can be saved by a "substitute" for the Sacrament, that is scandalous and undermines Catholic dogma.  Post-Tridentine theologians were careful to state not that people can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament but that they received the Sacrament in voto; they thought of it as a different mode of receiving the Sacrament.

    If you formulated your belief in BoD this way, I would not bother arguing with you but would consider it little more than a polite disagreement regarding a matter of speculative theology.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #153 on: June 11, 2018, 08:03:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2018, 07:56:52 PM
    That's still imprecise.  He teaches that people can be saved without the in re reception of water Baptism, or without actually receiving the water of Baptism.  "water Baptism" is merely synonymous with the Sacrament of Baptism.

    In any case, if BoDers would be a little more precise in their language, they could at least avoid giving the impression that they reject Catholic teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation by necessity of means.  When you use language like "without" or that people can be saved by a "substitute" for the Sacrament, that is scandalous and undermines Catholic dogma.  Post-Tridentine theologians were careful to state not that people can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament but that they received the Sacrament in voto; they thought of it as a different mode of receiving the Sacrament.

    If you formulated your belief in BoD this way, I would not bother arguing with you but would consider it little more than a polite disagreement regarding a matter of speculative theology.
    Sure. I don't bother to be precise because I've already put several hours into this silly discussion. Again, which sede group are you a part of? Dolan/Sanborn and the CMRI hold to BOD(Dolan has said it's a mortal sin to deny it)
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #154 on: June 11, 2018, 08:49:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 11, 2018, 05:34:31 PM
    No, but God is not bound by the Sacraments. ( think of the thief on the cross, we have no evidence that he was baptized) In the Paradiso, Dante points out that God's ways are totally beyond our understanding. It's worth reading over.  
    Really? Try using a chocolate chip cookie for transubstantiation. Silly statement that God is not bound by His sacraments.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #155 on: June 12, 2018, 03:14:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 11, 2018, 08:03:55 PM
    Sure. I don't bother to be precise because I've already put several hours into this silly discussion. Again, which sede group are you a part of? Dolan/Sanborn and the CMRI hold to BOD(Dolan has said it's a mortal sin to deny it)
    The gentleman to whom you are talking to has put 25 years into this discussion and is very patiently attempting to teach you to be precise, lest you become a heretic like the Pelagians. Precision is everything when you are attempting to skirt all those dogmas. You need to grow up.

    The gentleman is not a sedevacantes and neither am I. But we are not Novus Ordo or resistance either. You will learn a lot if you learn to abandon the demonizing you have been programmed to use by (maybe) the SSPX against the sedes and the strict EENSers (which you call heretics, schismatics). My confessor, may he rest in peace, was ordained in the early 1950's,  our chapel, had mostly SSPX people, but we also had many sedes and strict EENSers, and we all got along. After his death, he was replaced by SSPX, and they chased away the sedes and created conflict. To make a long story short, I concluded that these groups, SSPX, Dolan, CMRI etc. are just protecting their business in all of this demonizing. I do not follow such people. I may attend their mass if I am certain they are valid priests, but I do not SWALLOW all of their teachings.   
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #156 on: June 12, 2018, 04:17:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on June 12, 2018, 03:14:08 AM
    But we are not Novus Ordo or resistance either. 
    Correction: But we are not Novus Ordo or resistance  R&R either.
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #157 on: June 12, 2018, 05:10:46 AM »
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    • I almost regret joining Cathinfo. Many dull folks with Protestant mindsets who think they know better than the Church
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #158 on: June 12, 2018, 05:39:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 11, 2018, 05:34:31 PM
    No, but God is not bound by the Sacraments. ( think of the thief on the cross, we have no evidence that he was baptized) In the Paradiso, Dante points out that God's ways are totally beyond our understanding. It's worth reading over.  
    Christ did not make the reception of the sacrament necessary for salvation until after the crucifixion, so your point about the good thief is irrelevant. 
     
    When God made the sacrament a requirement for heaven, at the same time He took on the obligation to provide it - and has upheld His obligation repeatedly for 2000 years to all who have received it. So yes, God most certainly bound us to the sacrament because in making it a requirement for salvation, He chose to bind Himself to providing it.

    Certainly you agree that man cannot save himself, yet it is absolutely essential to the doctrine of a BOD that God's providence be altogether absent. Can we agree on this? If not, where is God's providence in a BOD?
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #159 on: June 12, 2018, 08:34:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 12, 2018, 05:10:46 AM
    I almost regret joining Cathinfo. Many dull folks with Protestant mindsets who think they know better than the Church
    You mean to say "YOUR interpretation" of what the Church teaches.  
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #160 on: June 12, 2018, 08:43:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 08, 2018, 07:32:05 PM
    The SSPX DOES NOT have an official position on this. I recently spoke to a SSPX seminary professor/priest who hold the same view as I.
    Sorry, but your statement is false Banezian.

    The SSPX has and does propagandize a false Catholic theology to fit their political needs.

    In +ABL's book below, the SSPX preaches a false doctrine of implicit Baptism.
    Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood were not good enough for them. They needed a magical baptism.

    This heresy was promoted by +ABL's contemporary, Karl Rahner, the notoriously nutty Jesuit.
    He was a heretic even by Conciliar church standards.

    How did this happen?

    You see, Implicit Baptism suits Menzingen's political purposes to be dogmatically "flexible" for a future newChurch deal.



    On page 74 of this book, it reads:

    "The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows amongst Protestants, Muslim, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this they become part of the Church".

    This incredible, тαℓмυdic inspired lie, has never been refuted by anyone in the SSPX.

    In fact, Bp. Fellay extrapolated on this magical baptism in San Francisco (Jan 2016).
    From the sanctuary, he preached to the SSPX faithful that aborted babies went to Heaven via Baptism of Blood. 

    The rabbis must be laughing their asses off at this one?  

    "Yes, let's murder more unbaptized babies so the dumb goy can pretend they went to Heaven".

    Ask your SSPX seminary priest/professor to explain this?  He can't and he won't.

    Tell him you have written proof, by his own leaders, that the SSPX is without traditional "rigidity" for Catholic dogmas.

    It is very clear that Menzingen modifies Catholic dogmas as they go along, to bend with newChurch politics.

    This explains why the SSPX has gone bonkers...



    They're trying to make themselves presentable to the "Destroyer" pope.

    Suggest that you read more and weep, watch and pray Banezian.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #161 on: June 12, 2018, 09:19:47 AM »
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    • There are a lot of "forgiveness" and "mercy" sermons coming out these days, as well.  And I don't mean just Novus Ordo sources, either.  Rome is trying a new tactic of softening Tradition via easy contacts and blessings from them (local bishop gives marriage permission; traditional Corpus Christi processions allowed to come into a local parish as a stop along the route, AND PUT OUR LORD ON A NOVUS ORDO TABLE!!!); also getting "Trad" priests to betray by sermonizing along the New Church "God is Love" lines.  These priests and these trad people, both young and old, are tired of the fight or never understood it to begin with.  The New Church, the Modernist Church, has been condemned by Pius X.  It should not even exist.  True Catholics are not satisfied with being thrown a bone of just having a "lane," a traditional Latin "rite" amongst all the others that allows sentimentalists to attend a Latin Mass just because they like it better.  The Novus Ordo must be put to death - a stake through its heart!  When the Triumph of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart takes place, it will no longer exist.  Please, Blessed Mother, hasten that day!      
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    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #162 on: June 12, 2018, 09:34:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 11, 2018, 08:03:55 PM
    Sure. I don't bother to be precise because I've already put several hours into this silly discussion.

    Then, by all means, just drop off.  You'd get a lot less antagonism from us "Feeneyites" if you were to use language which doesn't undermine Catholic dogma.

    Or, like the CMRI, who published the scandalous article "The Salvation of those Outside the Church" ... a word-for-word contradiction of Catholic dogma.
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    Offline Merry

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #163 on: June 12, 2018, 09:37:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Banezian on June 12, 2018, 05:10:46 AM
    I almost regret joining Cathinfo. Many dull folks with Protestant mindsets who think they know better than the Church
    You need, Father, to catch up.  The finger of God is with Fr. Feeney.  If you know your Church history, you have noticed how God raises up souls, often saints, to fix or judge on things incorrect or doctrines being softened or ignored.  Such is the fight against the necessity of the Church membership for salvation, and the necessity of Baptism of Water. Ecuмenism was a huge and well prepared-for element at the Vatican II Council.  Fr. Feeney was most inconvenient to these plans.  His superiors said that he was the best theologian they had in America by far. This was not a lightweight priest.  And now, in retrospect, we see that his concerns were well founded.  If you pray for truth, the Holy Ghost will show you this as well.  His cause was railroaded, much the same as Arch. L., who said he has never had a fair hearing.  Neither did Fr. Feeney.  When the powers that be don't want your case, when they are against God and you, they will stonewall you, and call you names.  But the heroes hold their position.   
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    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
    « Reply #164 on: June 12, 2018, 09:43:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Motorede on June 11, 2018, 08:49:17 PM
    Really? Try using a chocolate chip cookie for transubstantiation. Silly statement that God is not bound by His sacraments.

    God is indeed not bound by His Sacraments ... and yet God has seen fit to bind US.  But, yes, it's a silly statement but it RINGS true, and so they use it (even though it doesn't apply).
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