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Author Topic: Catholic dogma on salvation  (Read 15914 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2018, 03:13:15 PM »
Quote from: Banezian on June 11, 2018, 02:50:46 PM
"But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

St. Alphonsus Liguori
Banezian, pretending for a moment that all things being the same except you were never baptized and tomorrow sometime  you died suddenly, do you think it possible that you could be saved via a BOD? I'm just curious.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2018, 03:20:44 PM »
Quote from: Arsenius on June 11, 2018, 02:22:18 PM
You cut off my sentence midway and replied to a straw man. Note the qualification at the end of my sentence: in the Christian East.

I took the qualifier to be a reference to burial of Catechumens ... since the notion of membership is not language that was even used in the East in any strict theological sense.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2018, 03:22:13 PM »
Quote from: Arsenius on June 11, 2018, 02:22:18 PM
catechumens are considered Christians from the moment they enter the catechumenate.

This is correct.  Catechumens were signed with the sign of the cross in a formal ceremony and considered and called Christians, but they were clearly separated from the "faithful".

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2018, 03:24:09 PM »
Quote from: Arsenius on June 11, 2018, 02:22:18 PM

Do you realize that the practically unanimous teaching of the Eastern Fathers/Church is that the souls in Hades can be saved before the Final Judgement? So in a sense, even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't necessarily lead to the same conclusion of Feenyism, i.e. that the unbaptized are condemned to eternal hell. At least not according to the Christian East.

At the same time, however, the Eastern Fathers are even MORE insistent that the beatific vision cannot be had without the "seal" of the Sacrament.  Gregory nαzιanzen explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire.
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Offline Banezian

Re: Catholic dogma on salvation
« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2018, 03:24:32 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on June 11, 2018, 03:13:15 PM
Banezian, pretending for a moment that all things being the same except you were never baptized and tomorrow sometime  you died suddenly, do you think it possible that you could be saved via a BOD? I'm just curious.
What do you mean by the bolded? If I had the Faith that I do now, but died unbaptized(as a catechumen) I do believe I would be saved. Now, if I had an opportunity for Baptism, and rejected it or delayed, that's another story
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