Author Topic: Catechism Of St Pius X (Read 4155 times)

roscoe · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2013, 03:10:32 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Do posters seriously think that St Pius X, the great and vigilant watchdog of the Church against modernism, whose logic and observations we use anytime we find modernism, would allow a compilation of Catholic Teaching to include and support erroneous and heretical doctrine?

Thanks for the comment as this is what the topic is about. I agree that Pius X could not have written it.

Mithrandylan · « **Reply #16 on:** May 04, 2013, 03:25:25 PM »

Quote from: roscoe

Quote from: Mithrandylan
Do posters seriously think that St Pius X, the great and vigilant watchdog of the Church against modernism, whose logic and observations we use anytime we find modernism, would allow a compilation of Catholic Teaching to include and support erroneous and heretical doctrine?

Thanks for the comment as this is what the topic is about. I agree that Pius X could not have written it.

I am saying that it seems silly to propose that St Pius X would allow a catechism under his name that taught error. I think it's demonstrably true that the Catechism of St Pius X was not written by him, that's the nature of many catechisms. They are compilations or compendiums of Church teaching. I am asking, how could we believe that St Pius X, who recognized error as well as any pontiff, would miss the error in a Catechism that he approved and attached his name to?

bowler · « **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2013, 03:37:31 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Do posters seriously think that St Pius X, the great and vigilant watchdog of the Church against modernism, whose logic and observations we use anytime we find modernism, would allow a compilation of Catholic Teaching to include and support erroneous and heretical doctrine?

Thanks for the comment as this is what the topic is about. I agree that Pius X could not have written it.

I am saying that it seems silly to propose that St Pius X would allow a catechism under his name that taught error. I think it's demonstrably true that the Catechism of St Pius X was not written by him, that's the nature of many catechisms. They are compilations or compendiums of Church teaching. I am asking, how could we believe that St Pius X, who recognized error as well as any pontiff, would miss the error in a Catechism that he approved and attached his name to?

Do you have a copy of the original Catechism of Pius X in Italian?

bowler · « **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2013, 03:41:40 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Now that it is obvious that your attempt to condemn the Catechism of Saint Pius X has failed, let me now quote from another catechism that teaches exactly the same.

Below is a quote from the Baltimore Catechism, issued by the Third Council of Baltimore and approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States. It remained as the standard for Catholic schools for nearly a century. And note as well, that even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after it was published, the following content on the threefold baptism was intentionally left in the catechism throughout the entire century:

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

Will you now condemned Pope Leo XIII for approving this catechism? And will you also condemn Pope Saint Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII for allowing this catechism to remain as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States during their reigns????

This thread is specifically about the Catechism of Pius X. Start your own thread about whatever else you want to discuss, or take it to the "other all over the place" BOD thread.

Stay focused!

bowler · « **Reply #19 on:** May 04, 2013, 04:41:33 PM »

The World According to Bosco13

Quote from: saintbosco13

I'm sorry you still don't understand catechisms are part of the infallible ordinary magisterium.

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: bowler

4) You have not shown proof that Pius X wrote the Catechism of Pius X

I replied to this elsewhere. Even Benedict XVI states that Pope Pius X wrote this catechism.

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: saintbosco13

The catechism of Saint Pius X was written by this Pope and Saint himself, and published in 1908.

Never heard that said before in all of my years debating BOD. Can you prove it?

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.[/b]

Above are three of your outrages pontifications that you have not corrected.

1) You declared catechisms infallible. They are not.

2) You said Pope Pius X himself wrote the Catechism of Pius X.
3) You said B-16 stated that Pius X wrote it himself.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 04, 2013, 07:22:27 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Quote from: roscoe
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Do posters seriously think that St Pius X, the great and vigilant watchdog of the Church against modernism, whose logic and observations we use anytime we find modernism, would allow a compilation of Catholic Teaching to include and support erroneous and heretical doctrine?

Thanks for the comment as this is what the topic is about. I agree that Pius X could not have written it.

I am saying that it seems silly to propose that St Pius X would allow a catechism under his name that taught error. I think it's demonstrably true that the Catechism of St Pius X was not written by him, that's the nature of many catechisms. They are compilations or compendiums of Church teaching. I am asking, how could we believe that St Pius X, who recognized error as well as any pontiff, would miss the error in a Catechism that he approved and attached his name to?

This is some of the worst logic I've ever seen people use in my life. A few issues here:

1. Let's say worst-case, Pope Saint Pius X had a Cardinal or other Bishop compile the catechism for him. The catechism was published in 1908 during the reign of Pope Saint Pius X, so Pope Saint Pius X both knew about the catechism, and at a minimum, took ownership of that catechism by allowing his name to be published as part of it. In doing so, you can be sure he knew ALL about the catechism and reviewed it very carefully, even if he weren't to have written it.

2. The absurdity of saying Pope Saint Pius X could "miss" something so obvious in such a short and basic catechism, well, it's beyond absurdity. But just to play along with this absolutely absurd game you guys are playing here, let's say for a moment that Pope Saint Pius X missed an error in the catechism. Don't forget, the Vatican and rest of the world are FULL of other bishops and priests who would certainly catch the error, and let him know about it. No one has ever said a word. Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII afterward, and all of the bishops and priests of their day throughout the world also would have brought up any errors in the catechism. Nobody has. If you'd like to challenge this, then show us a letter of complaint from any priest or bishop or pope in the last 100 years who is complaining about errors in that catechism.

3. A quick Google search shows multiple websites stating that Pope Saint Pius X wrote the catechism. But again, it's really irrelevant. Pope Pius XII had other bishops help him write the papal encyclical on the Dogma of the Assumption, but yet Pope Pius XII, being the Bishop of Rome at the time, took ownership.

Give me a break guys!!!!

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 04, 2013, 07:31:52 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: saintbosco13
Now that it is obvious that your attempt to condemn the Catechism of Saint Pius X has failed, let me now quote from another catechism that teaches exactly the same.

Below is a quote from the Baltimore Catechism, issued by the Third Council of Baltimore and approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States. It remained as the standard for Catholic schools for nearly a century. And note as well, that even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after it was published, the following content on the threefold baptism was intentionally left in the catechism throughout the entire century:

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

Will you now condemned Pope Leo XIII for approving this catechism? And will you also condemn Pope Saint Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII for allowing this catechism to remain as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States during their reigns????

This thread is specifically about the Catechism of Pius X. Start your own thread about whatever else you want to discuss, or take it to the "other all over the place" BOD thread.

Stay focused!

Yes, I knew you wouldn't dare touch this one. It was okay to be "all over the place" in the other thread, but in this thread, it's not okay. Smokescreen.

bowler · « **Reply #22 on:** May 04, 2013, 07:34:57 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: saintbosco13
Now that it is obvious that your attempt to condemn the Catechism of Saint Pius X has failed, let me now quote from another catechism that teaches exactly the same.

Below is a quote from the Baltimore Catechism, issued by the Third Council of Baltimore and approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States. It remained as the standard for Catholic schools for nearly a century. And note as well, that even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after it was published, the following content on the threefold baptism was intentionally left in the catechism throughout the entire century:

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

Will you now condemned Pope Leo XIII for approving this catechism? And will you also condemn Pope Saint Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII for allowing this catechism to remain as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States during their reigns????

This thread is specifically about the Catechism of Pius X. Start your own thread about whatever else you want to discuss, or take it to the "other all over the place" BOD thread.

Stay focused!

Yes, I knew you wouldn't dare touch this one. It was okay to be "all over the place" in the other thread, but in this thread, it's not okay. Smokescreen.

If you thought it meant anything you would have posted it in the other thread. Catechisms don't say much, they have to be supplemented by real books. Is that as far as your knowledge goes?

bowler · « **Reply #23 on:** May 04, 2013, 07:37:17 PM »

Of course, no answer from you. Do you ever answer anything?

Quote from: bowler

The World According to Bosco13

Quote from: saintbosco13

I'm sorry you still don't understand catechisms are part of the infallible ordinary magisterium.

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: bowler

4) You have not shown proof that Pius X wrote the Catechism of Pius X

I replied to this elsewhere. Even Benedict XVI states that Pope Pius X wrote this catechism.

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: saintbosco13

The catechism of Saint Pius X was written by this Pope and Saint himself, and published in 1908.

Never heard that said before in all of my years debating BOD. Can you prove it?

The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.[/b]

Above are three of your outrages pontifications that you have not corrected.

1) You declared catechisms infallible. They are not.

2) You said Pope Pius X himself wrote the Catechism of Pius X.
3) You said B-16 stated that Pius X wrote it himself.

bowler · « **Reply #24 on:** May 04, 2013, 07:39:30 PM »

Bosco,

You are the one that started this thread question with your off the wall quote. Are you going to answer this or should I just forget about asking you anything else?

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: saintbosco13

You said I was referring to a bad translation, yet you are presenting the same translation here! Because you couldn't find your supposed "correct" translation, you now zero in on anything you can get your teeth on, which in this case is the "on the way of salvation" phrase, trying to give it your own meaning.

Here is your translation:

Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: Jehanne
I would invite SB to show one Magisterial docuмent which states, explicitly, that an unbaptized individual can belong to the "soul of the Catholic Church".

Please remove head from sand and read this magisterial reference:

St. Pope Pius X: Catechism of Christian Doctrine, para. 132, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

What exactly is "the same" about my translation and yours?

Here is mine:
Quote from: bowler

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

bowler · « **Reply #25 on:** May 04, 2013, 07:49:52 PM »

Moving on, this appears to be the real translation. What I wrote below is a Catholic take on it. Let me add to what I wrote below, that the second example the fellow with "the implicit desire of Baptism", could also be a Protestant from a denomination that does not baptize.

I repeat the most important points, this is s living person, and he is on the path of salvation. That is not the same as a dead person who is saved by baptism of desire. This is not an example of baptism of desire!

Quote from: bowler

Translation from Original Italian Version:

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

The translation from Italian to French to English Compendium:

The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Apostles’ Creed, “The Church in Particular,”
Q. 29: “Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best as he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”

1) Both of these versions are talking about a living being. Moreover, it says they are on the path, the way of salvation. It does not say anything about a person that dies by accident in this "way of salvation". This has nothing to do with baptism of desire.

2) It is talking about a person who is baptized, and mixing in a person who has implicit desire to be baptized. This implicit desire to be baptized is the theory of St. Thomas, it is a person who believes in (at a minimum)the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation. It is talking about a heretic or schismatic (they are baptized), and about a person who whishes to be a Catgholic (implicit baptism of desire). It is not talking about Implicit faith!

3) In the case of the person who is baptized, he can belong to the metaphorical soul of the Church of Abbot Marmion, which are the baptized who are in a state of grace. In the case of the implicit desire to be baptized, they can also belong to the same soul of the Church if they are justified by God, pre-sanctified before receiving the waters of baptism.

Bottom line is that this quote is not talking about a dead person. and it can be interpreted inline with EENS as it is written.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:14:10 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Above are three of your outrages pontifications that you have not corrected.

1) You declared catechisms infallible. They are not.

2) You said Pope Pius X himself wrote the Catechism of Pius X.
3) You said B-16 stated that Pius X wrote it himself.

1. I've already clarified this. Individual teachings in the catechism, if taught universally, are part of the infallible ordinary magisterium.

2. As I've already replied elsewhere, it's irrelevant whether Pope Pius X wrote the whole catechism with his own hand, or whether he had other bishops and cardinals helping him. He still has ownership of the catechism because his name is on it, and because it was published while he was Pope. Just like the papal encyclical on the Dogma of the Assumption was written with the help of other bishops, but the final encyclical was published by Pope Pius XII.

3. What I was referring to when I said B16 Said that Pope Saint Pius X wrote the catechism himself, see the wiki article on the catechism of Pope Saint Pius X. The section on B16 shows a quote from him. Also Cin.org, where the catechism of Pius X is displayed in full, clearly states Pope Saint Pius X brought the catechism. EWTN also attributes it to Saint Pius X. But again, as already mentioned above, it's irrelevant.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:17:44 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: saintbosco13
Now that it is obvious that your attempt to condemn the Catechism of Saint Pius X has failed, let me now quote from another catechism that teaches exactly the same.

Below is a quote from the Baltimore Catechism, issued by the Third Council of Baltimore and approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States. It remained as the standard for Catholic schools for nearly a century. And note as well, that even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after it was published, the following content on the threefold baptism was intentionally left in the catechism throughout the entire century:

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

Will you now condemned Pope Leo XIII for approving this catechism? And will you also condemn Pope Saint Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII for allowing this catechism to remain as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States during their reigns????

This thread is specifically about the Catechism of Pius X. Start your own thread about whatever else you want to discuss, or take it to the "other all over the place" BOD thread.

Stay focused!

Yes, I knew you wouldn't dare touch this one. It was okay to be "all over the place" in the other thread, but in this thread, it's not okay. Smokescreen.

If you thought it meant anything you would have posted it in the other thread. Catechisms don't say much, they have to be supplemented by real books. Is that as far as your knowledge goes?

Well I guess I goofed and posted here. It's irrelevant. Let's have an answer. Waiting.....

bowler · « **Reply #28 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:22:37 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Well I guess I goofed and posted here. It's irrelevant. Let's have an answer. Waiting.....

If you lack the energy to copy and paste it to another thread, then there is no point in me wasting my time.

Jehanne · « **Reply #29 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:38:51 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Well I guess I goofed and posted here. It's irrelevant. Let's have an answer. Waiting.....

The phrase "in the path of salvation" is ambiguous; what did Saint Pope Pius X mean by this? Is it impossible that someone who is "united to the soul" of the Catholic Church could not, at a later time, be "united to the body" of the Catholic Church? By "the path of salvation" does the Sovereign Pontiff mean that a person who is willing to abide by the will of the One and Triune God could, after being enlightened by "divine light and grace", find his/her way into the One True Church & Faith? In addition, could those sincere folks who desire Baptism, even implicitly, will, by the same divine grace, find their way to the baptismal font? Are you claiming that such would be impossible?