Author Topic: Catechism Of St Pius X (Read 4579 times)

bowler · « **Reply #25 on:** May 04, 2013, 07:49:52 PM »

Moving on, this appears to be the real translation. What I wrote below is a Catholic take on it. Let me add to what I wrote below, that the second example the fellow with "the implicit desire of Baptism", could also be a Protestant from a denomination that does not baptize.

I repeat the most important points, this is s living person, and he is on the path of salvation. That is not the same as a dead person who is saved by baptism of desire. This is not an example of baptism of desire!

Quote from: bowler

Translation from Original Italian Version:

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

The translation from Italian to French to English Compendium:

The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Apostles’ Creed, “The Church in Particular,”
Q. 29: “Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best as he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”

1) Both of these versions are talking about a living being. Moreover, it says they are on the path, the way of salvation. It does not say anything about a person that dies by accident in this "way of salvation". This has nothing to do with baptism of desire.

2) It is talking about a person who is baptized, and mixing in a person who has implicit desire to be baptized. This implicit desire to be baptized is the theory of St. Thomas, it is a person who believes in (at a minimum)the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation. It is talking about a heretic or schismatic (they are baptized), and about a person who whishes to be a Catgholic (implicit baptism of desire). It is not talking about Implicit faith!

3) In the case of the person who is baptized, he can belong to the metaphorical soul of the Church of Abbot Marmion, which are the baptized who are in a state of grace. In the case of the implicit desire to be baptized, they can also belong to the same soul of the Church if they are justified by God, pre-sanctified before receiving the waters of baptism.

Bottom line is that this quote is not talking about a dead person. and it can be interpreted inline with EENS as it is written.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:14:10 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Above are three of your outrages pontifications that you have not corrected.

1) You declared catechisms infallible. They are not.

2) You said Pope Pius X himself wrote the Catechism of Pius X.
3) You said B-16 stated that Pius X wrote it himself.

1. I've already clarified this. Individual teachings in the catechism, if taught universally, are part of the infallible ordinary magisterium.

2. As I've already replied elsewhere, it's irrelevant whether Pope Pius X wrote the whole catechism with his own hand, or whether he had other bishops and cardinals helping him. He still has ownership of the catechism because his name is on it, and because it was published while he was Pope. Just like the papal encyclical on the Dogma of the Assumption was written with the help of other bishops, but the final encyclical was published by Pope Pius XII.

3. What I was referring to when I said B16 Said that Pope Saint Pius X wrote the catechism himself, see the wiki article on the catechism of Pope Saint Pius X. The section on B16 shows a quote from him. Also Cin.org, where the catechism of Pius X is displayed in full, clearly states Pope Saint Pius X brought the catechism. EWTN also attributes it to Saint Pius X. But again, as already mentioned above, it's irrelevant.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:17:44 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: saintbosco13
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: saintbosco13
Now that it is obvious that your attempt to condemn the Catechism of Saint Pius X has failed, let me now quote from another catechism that teaches exactly the same.

Below is a quote from the Baltimore Catechism, issued by the Third Council of Baltimore and approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States. It remained as the standard for Catholic schools for nearly a century. And note as well, that even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after it was published, the following content on the threefold baptism was intentionally left in the catechism throughout the entire century:

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

Will you now condemned Pope Leo XIII for approving this catechism? And will you also condemn Pope Saint Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII for allowing this catechism to remain as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States during their reigns????

This thread is specifically about the Catechism of Pius X. Start your own thread about whatever else you want to discuss, or take it to the "other all over the place" BOD thread.

Stay focused!

Yes, I knew you wouldn't dare touch this one. It was okay to be "all over the place" in the other thread, but in this thread, it's not okay. Smokescreen.

If you thought it meant anything you would have posted it in the other thread. Catechisms don't say much, they have to be supplemented by real books. Is that as far as your knowledge goes?

Well I guess I goofed and posted here. It's irrelevant. Let's have an answer. Waiting.....

bowler · « **Reply #28 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:22:37 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Well I guess I goofed and posted here. It's irrelevant. Let's have an answer. Waiting.....

If you lack the energy to copy and paste it to another thread, then there is no point in me wasting my time.

Jehanne · « **Reply #29 on:** May 04, 2013, 08:38:51 PM »

Quote from: saintbosco13

Well I guess I goofed and posted here. It's irrelevant. Let's have an answer. Waiting.....

The phrase "in the path of salvation" is ambiguous; what did Saint Pope Pius X mean by this? Is it impossible that someone who is "united to the soul" of the Catholic Church could not, at a later time, be "united to the body" of the Catholic Church? By "the path of salvation" does the Sovereign Pontiff mean that a person who is willing to abide by the will of the One and Triune God could, after being enlightened by "divine light and grace", find his/her way into the One True Church & Faith? In addition, could those sincere folks who desire Baptism, even implicitly, will, by the same divine grace, find their way to the baptismal font? Are you claiming that such would be impossible?