Under a different topic there seems to be a debate as to whether or not the docuмent was actually penned by the Pope himself.

I tend to think it was not but cannot remember a source.  :confused1:

I asked the person who said that it was penned by Pius X himself to prove it, since in all of my years of debating BOD, not one book or person ever said such a thing. That person is a type of bluffer, he is totally winging it with this comment.

Here's what I have in my archive on the subject:

Unfortunately, what’s being passed-off as the “Catechism of Pope Pius X” is a compendium of other sources along with the Q&A, ostensibly from the Catechism of Pope Pius X. There are two such Compendiums, one of which was edited by Fr. Kevane who updated it to reflect the teachings of VCII - how much credibility then can we place in the more outrageous and perfectly contradictory Q&A which states that there is salvation outside the Church?  

The original Catechism was never published in English and for was local use within certain provinces of Italy. The Compendiums we have today went through private translations from Italian to French to English and of course were edited. I refuse to believe that Pope St. Pius X approved the more egregious errors within these “Catechisms” so let’s not be so quick to assume that that these Compendiums are faithful to the original or that Pius X “approved” them.[/quote]

Just in the interests of accuracy - I'm not trying to stir the pot! - I checked an on-line Italian version of this catechism. What Clarew quotes is from the Catechismus Minor, which has no covering letter from Pope St Pius X in the on-line version.


"132. Chi è fuori della Chiesa si salva?
Chi è fuori della Chiesa per propria colpa e muore senza dolore perfetto, non si salva; ma chi ci si trovi senza propria colpa e viva bene, può salvarsi con l'amor di carità, che unisce a Dio, e, in spirito, anche alla Chiesa, cioè all'anima di lei."

The English translation seems pretty close to this.

The Catechismus Maior does have the following letter from Pope St Pius X:

"COMPENDIO DELLA DOTTRINA CRISTIANA PRESCRITTO DA SUA SANTITÀ PAPA PIO X ALLE DIOCESI DELLA PROVINCIA DI ROMA, ROMA, TIPOGRAFIA VATICANA, 1905
AL SIGNOR CARDINALE PIETRO RESPIGHI NOSTRO VICARIO GENERALE
Signor Cardinale,
La necessità di provvedere per quanto è possibile alla religiosa istituzione della tenera gioventù Ci ha consigliato la stampa di un Catechismo, che esponga in modo chiaro i rudimenti della santa fede, e quelle divine verità, alle quali deve informarsi la vita d'ogni cristiano. Pertanto fatti esaminare i molti libri di testo già in uso nelle Diocesi d' Italia, Ci parve opportuno di adottare con lievi ritocchi il testo da vari anni approvato dai Vescovi del Piemonte, della Liguria, della Lombardia, della Emilia e della Toscana. L'uso di questo testo sarà obbligatorio per l'insegnamento pubblico e privato nella Diocesi di Roma e in tutte le altre della Provincia Romana; e confidiamo che anche le altre Diocesi vorranno adottarlo per arrivare cosi a quel testo unico, almeno per tutta l'Italia, che è nell'universale desiderio.
Con questa dolce speranza impartiamo di tutto cuore a Lei, Signor Cardinale, l'Apostolica Benedizione.
Dal Vaticano, li 14 Giugno 1905.
PIUS PP. X"


The answer it gives is slightly different, though not, I think, materially so:


"169 D. Può alcuno salvarsi fuori della Chiesa Cattolica, Apostolica, Romana?
       R. No, fuori della Chiesa Cattolica, Apostolica, Romana nessuno può salvarsi, come niuno poté salvarsi dal diluvio fuori dell'Arca di Noè, che era figura di questa Chiesa.
170 D. Come dunque si sono salvati gli antichi Patriarchi, i Profeti e tutti gli altri giusti dell'antico Testamento?
       R. Tutti i giusti dell'antico Testamento si sono salvati in virtù della fede che avevano in Cristo venturo, per mezzo della quale essi già appartenevano spiritualmente a questa Chiesa.
171 D. Ma chi si trovasse, senza sua colpa, fuori della Chiesa, potrebbe salvarsi?
       R. Chi, trovandosi senza sua colpa, ossia in buona fede, fuori della Chiesa, avesse ricevuto il Battesimo, o ne avesse il desiderio almeno implicito; cercasse inoltre sinceramente la verità e compisse la volontà di Dio come meglio può; benché separato dal corpo della Chiesa, sarebbe unito all'anima di lei e quindi in via di salute."

I am by no means expert at Italian, but a rough translation would be:

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

I can find no Latin version. I assume it was composed in Italian.[/quote]

That’s quite interesting.  There is no Latin version that I am aware of because this is a local catechism. Now, if they have received baptism then they have at least a belief in Christ and the essential Mysteries. According to this version, if they are not baptized, their Faith in Christ and the essential Mysteries may imply an “implicit desire” for baptism.  But notice too that this passage does not state they will be saved “where they are”; but only that they are “in the path of salvation”.  Will God leave them on the path of salvation without providing the means to arrive there? Of course, here we go again with what is “implied” but if God granted them the grace of Faith and they co-operate with such grace, would He leave them in this state without also granting them the grace of charity and conversion? If it is God’s will are they not also given the grace to act on His will?

To answer in the negative is to suggest that it is not God who moves the will or that His will can be frustrated by events out of His “control”. Man must assent and co-operate with grace through free will; but it is a will which is assisted by God to assent in the first place.  

Item last, the belonging to the “soul of the Church but not the Body” theory has been refuted (or “placed into context”) by magisterial teaching which solemnly declares that the unity of the Soul and the Mystical/ecclesiastical Body is such that the Soul cannot be separated from the Body (there is neither sanctification nor the remission of sins outside the Body). The Holy Ghost moves where He wills and operates on the souls of the elect through actual and pre-disposing graces, but the idea that His uncreated nature substantially abides within a soul resulting in a state of created sanctifying grace without incorporation into the Mystical/ecclesiastical Body is foreign to Trent and magisterial teaching. I am fully aware of the “mental incorporation” theory but once again, it is a theory.  What does the infallible Church teach?

Translation from Original Italian Version:

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

The translation from Italian to French to English Compendium:

The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, The Apostles’ Creed, “The Church in Particular,”
Q. 29: “Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best as he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”


1) Both of these versions are talking about a living being. Moreover, it says they are on the path, the way of salvation. It does not say anything about a person that dies by accident in this "way of salvation". This has nothing to do with baptism of desire.

2) It is talking about a person who is baptized, and mixing in a person who has implicit desire to be baptized. This implicit desire to be baptized is the theory of St. Thomas, it is a person who believes in (at a minimum)the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation. It is talking about a heretic or schismatic (they are baptized), and about a person who whishes to be a Catgholic (implicit baptism of desire). It is not talking about Implicit faith!

3) In the case of the person who is baptized, he can belong to the metaphorical soul of the Church of Abbot Marmion, which are the baptized who are in a state of grace. In the case of the implicit desire to be baptized, they can also belong to the same soul of the Church if they are justified by God, pre-sanctified before receiving the waters of baptism.

Bottom line is that this quote is not talking about a dead person. and it can be interpreted inline with EENS as it is written.

con't:

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments.
On Baptism

Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema


Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy
orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
have not received this consecration.”

You said I was referring to a bad translation, yet you are presenting the same translation here! Because you couldn't find your supposed "correct" translation, you now zero in on anything you can get your teeth on, which in this case is the "on the way of salvation" phrase, trying to give it your own meaning.

Here is your translation:

 

Quote from: Jehanne

I would invite SB to show one Magisterial docuмent which states, explicitly, that an unbaptized individual can belong to the "soul of the Catholic Church".

Please remove head from sand and read this magisterial reference:

St. Pope Pius X: Catechism of Christian Doctrine, para. 132, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved.  But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

What exactly is "the same" about my translation and yours?

Here is mine:

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have recieved Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

Now that it is obvious that your attempt to condemn the Catechism of Saint Pius X has failed, let me now quote from another catechism that teaches exactly the same.

Below is a quote from the Baltimore Catechism, issued by the Third Council of Baltimore and approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States. It remained as the standard for Catholic schools for nearly a century. And note as well, that even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after it was published, the following content on the threefold baptism was intentionally left in the catechism throughout the entire century:

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?
A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching.

Will you now condemned Pope Leo XIII for approving this catechism? And will you also condemn Pope Saint Pius X, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius XI, and Pope Pius XII for allowing this catechism to remain as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States during their reigns????

Now that it is obvious that your attempt to condemn the Catechism of Saint Pius X has failed, let me now quote from another catechism that teaches exactly the same.

Finish one item before you go to another, answer my question:

Quote from: saintbosco13

You said I was referring to a bad translation, yet you are presenting the same translation here! Because you couldn't find your supposed "correct" translation, you now zero in on anything you can get your teeth on, which in this case is the "on the way of salvation" phrase, trying to give it your own meaning.

Here is your translation:

 

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: Jehanne

I would invite SB to show one Magisterial docuмent which states, explicitly, that an unbaptized individual can belong to the "soul of the Catholic Church".

Please remove head from sand and read this magisterial reference:

St. Pope Pius X: Catechism of Christian Doctrine, para. 132, "A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved.  But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church."

What exactly is "the same" about my translation and yours?

Here is mine:

Quote from: bowler

"Those who, finding themselves without their own fault, that is in good faith, outside the Church, have received Baptism, or have at least the implicit desire for it; and moreover have sought the truth sincerely and have fulfilled the will of God as best they can; although separated from the body of the Church, would be united her soul and so in the path of salvation"

Do posters seriously think that St Pius X, the great and vigilant watchdog of the Church against modernism, whose logic and observations we use anytime we find modernism, would allow a compilation of Catholic Teaching to include and support erroneous and heretical doctrine?