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Author Topic: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?  (Read 1221 times)

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Offline Levantine Crusader

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Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« on: April 25, 2021, 10:26:10 PM »
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  • Fr. Laisney in his book “Is Feeneyism Catholic?” states the following regarding Cantate Domino’s oft repeated ex cathedra pronouncement typically used in favor of Fr. Feeney’s interpretation of EENS:

    “Perhaps the  clearest definition of the dogma  Outside  the Church there is no salvation  is given on February  4,  1442, by  the Council of Florence, which intended the union with the  Greeks, Armenians and Jacobites. [The holy Roman  Church]  firmly believes, professes, and preaches that “no one remaining outside the Catholic  Church, not just  pagans,  but also  Jєωs  or  heretics or schismatics,  can become  partakers of  eternal life;  but  they will  go  to the ‘everlasting fire which  was prepared for the  devil and his angels’  (Mt. 25:41), unless  before  the  end  of life they  are  joined to the  Church. For union with the body of the Church is of such  importance that the  sacraments of the  Church are helpful to  salvation only  for those remaining in it; and fasts,  almsgiving, other works of piety, and the exercise of Christian warfare  bear eternal rewards  for them  alone.  And  no  one  can  be  saved,  no  matter  how  much  alms he  has given,  even if he sheds  his  blood for the name  of Christ, unless  he remains in the bosom  and the unity of the Catholic Church.”60 Some followers of  Fr.  Feeney, reading  the last sentence,  pretend that  it is a condemnation of Baptism of Blood.61  This only shows their ignorance of  the fact  that  this  whole paragraph is  a quote by the Council of Florence  of a passage of St. Fulgentius,  in his book  On  Faith,  to Peter. Now,  when a  Pope or  a Council quote a Father of the Church, they  certainly  do  not  give  another meaning to  his  words than this Father gave.

    Moreover, the  very  Council of Florence, in the very  same  decree for  the Jacobites (part  of the  bull  Cantate  Domino) mentions baptism  of desire! Here  is  the passage: As  for children, because  of the danger of death, which can happen often, since  no other remedy is available for them  besides the sacrament of  Baptism, by  which they are delivered  from the domination of the devil and  adopted as  children of God, [the Council]  warns  that one ought not  to delay the sacred Baptism for  40  or 80  days  or another  time according  to certain customs, but it should  rather be  conferred as  soon  as  fittingly possible. Now the underlined passage is a quote  from St. Thomas Aquinas.  Knowing how closely  the Council of Florence followed St.  Thomas’s  teaching, it is  undoubtedly a  confirmation by  the very  Council of  Florence of St. Thomas’s  teaching.  Now here  is the whole text of  St. Thomas: Whether Baptism  should be deferred? (Summa Theologica,  III, Q.68,  A.3) I answer  that, In this matter we must make a distinction and see whether  those who are to be  baptized are children  or  adults. For  if they be  children, Baptism should not  be deferred. First, because in them  we do not look for  better instruction or fuller conversion.  Secondly, because of the  danger of death, for  no other remedy  is available for  them  besides the sacrament of  Baptism. On the other  hand,  adults have a remedy  in the mere desire for Baptism.”

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Does Cantate Domino then really imply that adults as opposed to children have another remedy to water Baptism via Baptism of Desire? Does this mean that Baptism of Desire makes a person Catholic?

    These are interesting questions that I would like some references on if anyone happens to have anything relevant.

    I’ve been reading Who Shall Ascend? as well as Bread of Life and I haven’t seen this issue discussed. Moreover I haven’t found a direct discussion concerning it much elsewhere either.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #1 on: April 25, 2021, 11:10:02 PM »
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  • Fr. Laisney in his book “Is Feeneyism Catholic?” states the following regarding Cantate Domino’s oft repeated ex cathedra pronouncement typically used in favor of Fr. Feeney’s interpretation of EENS:

    (. . .)

    Moreover, the  very  Council of Florence, in the very  same  decree for  the Jacobites (part  of the  bull  Cantate  Domino) mentions baptism  of desire!



    Where does it mention it?



    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/councils/ecuм17.htm

    Quote
    SESSION 11 4 February 1442

    [Bull of union with the Copts]

    (. . .)

    With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time in accordance with the usage of some people, but it should be conferred as soon as it conveniently can; and if there is imminent danger of death, the child should be baptized straightaway without any delay, even by a lay man or a woman in the form of the church, if there is no priest, as is contained more fully in the decree on the Armenians.





    The Christian Faith in the Doctrinal Docuмents of the Catholic Church, published in 1982

    Page 377:


    Pope Siricius, Letter to Himerius, Bishop of Tarragona, 385



    Quote
    As we maintain that the observance of the holy Paschal time should in no way be relaxed, in the same way we desire that infants who, on account of their age, cannot yet speak, or those who, in any necessity, are in want of the water of holy baptism, be succoured with all possible speed, for fear that, if anyone who leaves this world should be deprived of the life of the Kingdom for having been refused the source of salvation which he desired, this may lead to the ruin of our souls. If anyone threatened with shipwreck, or the attack of enemies, or the uncertainties of a siege, or anyone put in a hopeless condition due to some bodily sickness, asks for what in his faith is his only help, let him receive at the very moment of his request the reward of the regeneration he begs for. Enough of the past mistakes! From now on, let all the priests observe the aforesaid rule if they do not want to be separated from the solid apostolic rock on which Christ has built His universal Church.




    Scan of the page is attached.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #2 on: April 25, 2021, 11:10:44 PM »
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  • That book is awful and very dishonest.

    Offline Levantine Crusader

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #3 on: April 26, 2021, 07:45:55 AM »
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  • Where does it mention it?

    Fr. Laisney’s argument is two fold.
    1. Since Cantate Domino says “regarding children since the only remedy...” which implies that another remedy is available to adults i.e Baptism of Desire. (See full quote in OP)
    2. Cantate Domino is quoting St. Fulgentius and St. Thomas Aquinas in the passages cited against belief in Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire respectively yet St. Fulgentius goes on to mention Baptism of Blood in what he is quoted in and St. Aquinas the same for Baptism of Desire.
    I’m curious to know if Fr. Feeney or someone who holds to his position has addressed this argument before hence my OP. I couldn’t find anything on it.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #4 on: April 26, 2021, 08:04:22 AM »
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  • If you're claiming that because CD cites St. Fulgentius and St. Thomas that it endorses all their other thoughts on the subject, not only is that absurd, but

    ... ahem ... you are aware, right?, that St. Fulgentius explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #5 on: April 26, 2021, 08:08:15 AM »
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  • That book is awful and very dishonest.

    Yes, it is.  Not only does Fr. Laisney lie in claiming that the Church Fathers unanimously endorsed BoD, but he was caught strategically using ellipses to remove key phrases that undercut his theses.  That book should be put on the Index and burned.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #6 on: April 26, 2021, 08:09:12 AM »
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  • Fr. Laisney’s argument is two fold.
    1. Since Cantate Domino says “regarding children since the only remedy...” which implies that another remedy is available to adults i.e Baptism of Desire. (See full quote in OP)
    2. Cantate Domino is quoting St. Fulgentius and St. Thomas Aquinas in the passages cited against belief in Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire respectively yet St. Fulgentius goes on to mention Baptism of Blood in what he is quoted in and St. Aquinas the same for Baptism of Desire.
    I’m curious to know if Fr. Feeney or someone who holds to his position has addressed this argument before hence my OP. I couldn’t find anything on it.

    You (and Laiseney) left out the part where St. Fulgentius rejects Baptism of Desire.  By Laisney's own (dishonest) argument, this "proves" that Florence rejected Baptism of Desire.   :laugh1:

    Sorry, but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, that a citation from a Council of some passage from a saint means that the Council is teaching everything the cited author teaches about the subject.

    Offline Levantine Crusader

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #7 on: April 26, 2021, 08:27:11 AM »
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  • If you're claiming that because CD cites St. Fulgentius and St. Thomas that it endorses all their other thoughts on the subject, not only is that absurd, but

    ... ahem ... you are aware, right?, that St. Fulgentius explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire?
    I’m not claiming anything. I said this is what Fr. Laisney claimed in his book and I wanted to know if it was addressed as an objection by someone like Fr. Wathen or Fr. Feeney.


    Offline Levantine Crusader

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #8 on: April 26, 2021, 08:32:08 AM »
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  • You (and Laiseney) left out the part where St. Fulgentius rejects Baptism of Desire.  By Laisney's own (dishonest) argument, this "proves" that Florence rejected Baptism of Desire.   :laugh1:

    Sorry, but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, that a citation from a Council of some passage from a saint means that the Council is teaching everything the cited author teaches about the subject.
    I didn’t leave out anything because I am not the one making the argument in the first place. I’m also not particularly impressed with your objection.

    If you’re interested in bickering or arguing then please do it elsewhere. I simply want a source regarding my concern.

    My OP request still stands. I want to know if this was addressed via a refutation by someone along the lines of Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #9 on: April 26, 2021, 10:30:39 AM »
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  • My OP request still stands. I want to know if this was addressed via a refutation by someone along the lines of Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen.
    Both Wathen and Feeney were dead when Laisney wrote that, so how can they refute something that was invented by Laisney after they were dead? Your OP request has been thoroughly responded to here from other sources, is it that you do not believe what everyone is telling you, or that you do not want to believe anything they are telling you? Either way it sounds like it is a waste of time to answer you, for you have already made up your mind and no one is going to change it.

    Quote
    Where does it mention it? That book is awful and very dishonest.

    Quote

    As we maintain that the observance of the holy Paschal time should in no way be relaxed, in the same way we desire that infants who, on account of their age, cannot yet speak, or those who, in any necessity, are in want of the water of holy baptism, be succoured with all possible speed, for fear that, if anyone who leaves this world should be deprived of the life of the Kingdom for having been refused the source of salvation which he desired, this may lead to the ruin of our souls. If anyone threatened with shipwreck, or the attack of enemies, or the uncertainties of a siege, or anyone put in a hopeless condition due to some bodily sickness, asks for what in his faith is his only help, let him receive at the very moment of his request the reward of the regeneration he begs for. Enough of the past mistakes! From now on, let all the priests observe the aforesaid rule if they do not want to be separated from the solid apostolic rock on which Christ has built His universal Church.



    Quote

    If you're claiming that because CD cites St. Fulgentius and St. Thomas that it endorses all their other thoughts on the subject, not only is that absurd, but

    ... ahem ... you are aware, right?, that St. Fulgentius explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire?


    Quote
    You (and Laiseney) left out the part where St. Fulgentius rejects Baptism of Desire.  By Laisney's own (dishonest) argument, this "proves" that Florence rejected Baptism of Desire.  

    Sorry, but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard, that a citation from a Council of some passage from a saint means that the Council is teaching everything the cited author teaches about the subject

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Levantine Crusader

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #10 on: April 26, 2021, 10:54:22 AM »
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  • Both Wathen and Feeney were dead when Laisney wrote that, so how can they refute something that was invented by Laisney after they were dead? Your OP request has been thoroughly responded to here from other sources, is it that you do not believe what everyone is telling you, or that you do not want to believe anything they are telling you? Either way it sounds like it is a waste of time to answer you, for you have already made up your mind and no one is going to change it.
    Fr. Wathen responded to Fr. Laisney in “Who Shall Ascend?” regarding objections made in the latter’s prototype work that eventually became “Is Feeneyism Catholic?” So my request is not illogical in its presumption that it is possible that this objection was answered in a source that I am unaware of.

    Secondly the only person in this thread who has responded using a rebuttal to the  concerns did not “use other sources” but used arguments deduced as a counterpart to Fr. Laisney’s arguments.

    Thirdly, how can you assume to know what I believe regarding this matter? In point of fact, I do not believe in Baptism of Desire nor in Baptism of Blood.

    My interest in the matter stems from knowing if Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen or someone along those lines like the MICM was/is aware of this objection and has written on it.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #11 on: April 26, 2021, 02:10:55 PM »
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  • I’m also not particularly impressed with your objection.

    If you’re interested in bickering or arguing then please do it elsewhere. I simply want a source regarding my concern.
    With that bad attitude, who would want to even respond to you? Laisney's comment has been answered for you. He's a total amateur on the subject, his book is written for people who know nothing about the subject. "In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a King". 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #12 on: April 26, 2021, 03:08:01 PM »
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  • I didn’t leave out anything because I am not the one making the argument in the first place. I’m also not particularly impressed with your objection.

    If you’re interested in bickering or arguing then please do it elsewhere. I simply want a source regarding my concern.

    My OP request still stands. I want to know if this was addressed via a refutation by someone along the lines of Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen.

    No, it's never been addressed because it's idiotic on its face ... for the reasons I stated above.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #13 on: April 27, 2021, 07:50:27 AM »
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  • I didn’t leave out anything because I am not the one making the argument in the first place. I’m also not particularly impressed with your objection.

    If you’re interested in bickering or arguing then please do it elsewhere. I simply want a source regarding my concern.

    My OP request still stands. I want to know if this was addressed via a refutation by someone along the lines of Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen.

    Levantine,

    Good question. Ignore some of the response; you've poked a hornets' nest, and you've just encountered some of the first responders; more from the nest will likely come. Never you mind, gunner, never you mind.

    The best way to see the consistency in the Magisterium's teaching on this is to compare the passage from Cantate Domino with this relevant discussion in the Roman Catechism:



    Quote
    Infant Baptism: It's Necessity

    That this law extends not only to adults but also to infants and children, and that the Church has received this from Apostolic tradition, is confirmed by the unanimous teaching and authority of the Fathers.

    Besides, it is not to be supposed that Christ the Lord would have withheld the Sacrament and grace of Baptism from children, of whom He said: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me; for the kingdom of heaven is for such; ° whom also He embraced, upon whom He imposed hands, to whom He gave His blessing.

    Moreover, when we read that an entire family was baptised by Paul, it is sufficiently obvious that the children of the family must also have been cleansed in the saving font.

    Circuмcision, too, which was a figure of Baptism, affords strong argument in proof of this practice. That children were circuмcised on the eighth day is universally known. If then circuмcision, made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, was profitable to children, it is clear that Baptism, which is the circuмcision of Christ, not made by hand, is also profitable to them.

    Finally, as the Apostle teaches, if by one man's offence death reigned through one, much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. If, then, through the transgression of Adam, children inherit original sin, with still stronger reason can they attain through Christ our Lord grace and justice that they may reign in life. This, however, cannot be effected otherwise than by Baptism.

    Pastors, therefore, should inculcate the absolute necessity of administering Baptism to infants, and of gradually forming their tender minds to piety by education in the Christian religion. For according to these admirable words of the wise man: A young man according to his way, even when he is old, he will not depart from it.

    Infants Receive The Graces Of Baptism


    It may not be doubted that in Baptism infants receive the mysterious gifts of faith. Not that they believe with the assent of the mind, but they are established in the faith of their parents, if the parents profess the true faith; if not--to use the words of St. Augustine--then in that of the universal society of the saints; for they are rightly said to be presented for Baptism by all those to whom their initiation in that sacred rite is a source of joy, and by whose charity they are united to the communion of the Holy Ghost.

    Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed


    The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

    Baptism Of Adults


    With regard to those of adult age who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, namely, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out that a different manner of proceeding should be followed. To them the Christian faith is to be proposed; and they are earnestly to be exhorted, persuaded and invited to embrace it.

    They Should Not Delay Their Baptism Unduly


    If converted to the Lord God, they are then to be admonished not to defer the Sacrament of Baptism beyond the time prescribed by the Church. For since it is written, delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day, they are to be taught that in their regard perfect conversion consists in regeneration by Baptism. Besides, the longer they defer Baptism, the longer are they deprived of the use and graces of the other Sacraments, by which the Christian religion is practised, since the other Sacraments are accessible through Baptism only.

    They are also deprived of the abundant fruits of Baptism, the waters of which not only wash away all the stains and defilements of past sins, but also enrich us with divine grace which enables us to avoid sin for the future and preserve righteousness and innocence, which constitute the sum of a Christian life, as all can easily understand.

    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once


    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

    Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

    Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.

    In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be: Baptised At Once


    Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptised is well instructed in the mysteries of faith. This we find to have been done by Philip, and by the Prince of the Apostles, when without any delay, the one baptised the eunuch of Queen Candace; the other, Cornelius, as soon as they expressed a wish to embrace the faith.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml

    As I said, you can see the similarity of thought and consistency between the "no other remedy" language of Cantate Domino and the later teaching in the Roman Catechism.

    So it's a good question you pose. I'm not aware of any reasoned "Feeneyite" response.

    If you raise this elsewhere in the future, I'd leave Fr. Laisney out of the equation, as there are problems with his analysis that will draw the fire (or sting from the hornets, who often, when poked, rely upon their hive memory  regarding pokers they have dealt with in the past - they hear "Laisney" and go into their Laisney formations in defense), and the point at issue will not be addressed.

    Welcome, and good luck.











    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
    « Reply #14 on: April 27, 2021, 07:51:56 AM »
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  • With that bad attitude, who would want to even respond to you? Laisney's comment has been answered for you. He's a total amateur on the subject, his book is written for people who know nothing about the subject. "In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a King".

    He's the one with the bad attitude?  :laugh1:  :laugh2:
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.