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Author Topic: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?  (Read 2170 times)

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Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2021, 10:54:22 AM »
Both Wathen and Feeney were dead when Laisney wrote that, so how can they refute something that was invented by Laisney after they were dead? Your OP request has been thoroughly responded to here from other sources, is it that you do not believe what everyone is telling you, or that you do not want to believe anything they are telling you? Either way it sounds like it is a waste of time to answer you, for you have already made up your mind and no one is going to change it.
Fr. Wathen responded to Fr. Laisney in “Who Shall Ascend?” regarding objections made in the latter’s prototype work that eventually became “Is Feeneyism Catholic?” So my request is not illogical in its presumption that it is possible that this objection was answered in a source that I am unaware of.

Secondly the only person in this thread who has responded using a rebuttal to the  concerns did not “use other sources” but used arguments deduced as a counterpart to Fr. Laisney’s arguments.

Thirdly, how can you assume to know what I believe regarding this matter? In point of fact, I do not believe in Baptism of Desire nor in Baptism of Blood.

My interest in the matter stems from knowing if Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen or someone along those lines like the MICM was/is aware of this objection and has written on it.

Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2021, 02:10:55 PM »
I’m also not particularly impressed with your objection.

If you’re interested in bickering or arguing then please do it elsewhere. I simply want a source regarding my concern.
With that bad attitude, who would want to even respond to you? Laisney's comment has been answered for you. He's a total amateur on the subject, his book is written for people who know nothing about the subject. "In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a King". 


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2021, 03:08:01 PM »
I didn’t leave out anything because I am not the one making the argument in the first place. I’m also not particularly impressed with your objection.

If you’re interested in bickering or arguing then please do it elsewhere. I simply want a source regarding my concern.

My OP request still stands. I want to know if this was addressed via a refutation by someone along the lines of Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen.

No, it's never been addressed because it's idiotic on its face ... for the reasons I stated above.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2021, 07:50:27 AM »

I didn’t leave out anything because I am not the one making the argument in the first place. I’m also not particularly impressed with your objection.

If you’re interested in bickering or arguing then please do it elsewhere. I simply want a source regarding my concern.

My OP request still stands. I want to know if this was addressed via a refutation by someone along the lines of Fr. Feeney or Fr. Wathen.

Levantine,

Good question. Ignore some of the response; you've poked a hornets' nest, and you've just encountered some of the first responders; more from the nest will likely come. Never you mind, gunner, never you mind.

The best way to see the consistency in the Magisterium's teaching on this is to compare the passage from Cantate Domino with this relevant discussion in the Roman Catechism:



Quote
Infant Baptism: It's Necessity

That this law extends not only to adults but also to infants and children, and that the Church has received this from Apostolic tradition, is confirmed by the unanimous teaching and authority of the Fathers.

Besides, it is not to be supposed that Christ the Lord would have withheld the Sacrament and grace of Baptism from children, of whom He said: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me; for the kingdom of heaven is for such; ° whom also He embraced, upon whom He imposed hands, to whom He gave His blessing.

Moreover, when we read that an entire family was baptised by Paul, it is sufficiently obvious that the children of the family must also have been cleansed in the saving font.

Circuмcision, too, which was a figure of Baptism, affords strong argument in proof of this practice. That children were circuмcised on the eighth day is universally known. If then circuмcision, made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, was profitable to children, it is clear that Baptism, which is the circuмcision of Christ, not made by hand, is also profitable to them.

Finally, as the Apostle teaches, if by one man's offence death reigned through one, much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. If, then, through the transgression of Adam, children inherit original sin, with still stronger reason can they attain through Christ our Lord grace and justice that they may reign in life. This, however, cannot be effected otherwise than by Baptism.

Pastors, therefore, should inculcate the absolute necessity of administering Baptism to infants, and of gradually forming their tender minds to piety by education in the Christian religion. For according to these admirable words of the wise man: A young man according to his way, even when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Infants Receive The Graces Of Baptism


It may not be doubted that in Baptism infants receive the mysterious gifts of faith. Not that they believe with the assent of the mind, but they are established in the faith of their parents, if the parents profess the true faith; if not--to use the words of St. Augustine--then in that of the universal society of the saints; for they are rightly said to be presented for Baptism by all those to whom their initiation in that sacred rite is a source of joy, and by whose charity they are united to the communion of the Holy Ghost.

Baptism Of Infants Should Not Be Delayed


The faithful are earnestly to be exhorted to take care that their children be brought to the church, as soon as it can be done with safety, to receive solemn Baptism. Since infant children have no other means of salvation except Baptism, we may easily understand how grievously those persons sin who permit them to remain without the grace of the Sacrament longer than necessity may require, particularly at an age so tender as to be exposed to numberless dangers of death.

Baptism Of Adults


With regard to those of adult age who enjoy the perfect use of reason, persons, namely, born of infidel parents, the practice of the primitive Church points out that a different manner of proceeding should be followed. To them the Christian faith is to be proposed; and they are earnestly to be exhorted, persuaded and invited to embrace it.

They Should Not Delay Their Baptism Unduly


If converted to the Lord God, they are then to be admonished not to defer the Sacrament of Baptism beyond the time prescribed by the Church. For since it is written, delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day, they are to be taught that in their regard perfect conversion consists in regeneration by Baptism. Besides, the longer they defer Baptism, the longer are they deprived of the use and graces of the other Sacraments, by which the Christian religion is practised, since the other Sacraments are accessible through Baptism only.

They are also deprived of the abundant fruits of Baptism, the waters of which not only wash away all the stains and defilements of past sins, but also enrich us with divine grace which enables us to avoid sin for the future and preserve righteousness and innocence, which constitute the sum of a Christian life, as all can easily understand.

Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once


On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.

Nay, this delay seems to be attended with some advantages. And first, since the Church must take particular care that none approach this Sacrament through hypocrisy and dissimulation, the intentions of such as seek Baptism, are better examined and ascertained. Hence it is that we read in the decrees of ancient Councils that Jєωιѕн converts to the Catholic faith, before admission to Baptism, should spend some months in the ranks of the catechumens.

Furthermore, the candidate for Baptism is thus better instructed in the doctrine of the faith which he is to profess, and in the practices of the Christian life. Finally, when Baptism is administered to adults with solemn ceremonies on the appointed days of Easter and Pentecost only greater religious reverence is shown to the Sacrament.

In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be: Baptised At Once


Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptised is well instructed in the mysteries of faith. This we find to have been done by Philip, and by the Prince of the Apostles, when without any delay, the one baptised the eunuch of Queen Candace; the other, Cornelius, as soon as they expressed a wish to embrace the faith.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml

As I said, you can see the similarity of thought and consistency between the "no other remedy" language of Cantate Domino and the later teaching in the Roman Catechism.

So it's a good question you pose. I'm not aware of any reasoned "Feeneyite" response.

If you raise this elsewhere in the future, I'd leave Fr. Laisney out of the equation, as there are problems with his analysis that will draw the fire (or sting from the hornets, who often, when poked, rely upon their hive memory  regarding pokers they have dealt with in the past - they hear "Laisney" and go into their Laisney formations in defense), and the point at issue will not be addressed.

Welcome, and good luck.












Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Cantate Domino & The Question of Who is Catholic?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2021, 07:51:56 AM »
With that bad attitude, who would want to even respond to you? Laisney's comment has been answered for you. He's a total amateur on the subject, his book is written for people who know nothing about the subject. "In the country of blind men, the one eyed man is a King".

He's the one with the bad attitude?  :laugh1:  :laugh2: