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Poll

Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?  (Read 18401 times)

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Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #175 on: August 25, 2017, 01:46:18 PM »
And the mistaken opinion on St. Alphonsus was due to a lack of deeper understanding regarding the Ordinary Universal Magisterium ... which wouldn't be defined clearly until Vatican I.  Pursuant to the Vatican I definition, St. Alphonsus would no doubt have revised his opinion.  He simply saw a number of prominent theologians (big-named Jesuits) proposing this opinion and he called it less probable for that reason, because a minority of theologians held it.

But just because something remains uncondemned with explicit condemnation doesn't mean it's not heresy or error.  Again, Lutheranism, Pelagianism, Arianism, Nestorianism ... all these flourished for a significant length of time before they were explicitly condemned by the Church -- that did not make Arianism a "less probable" opinion, simply because it remained uncondemned; Arianism was a heresy from the inception.  It's just that it took people a little while to wake up to it and explicitly condemn it.
Alphonsus doesn't get it. Ladislaus does.  
WRONG!

Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #176 on: August 25, 2017, 02:32:07 PM »
You've been citing theologians, mainly Msgr. Fenton recently, saying that "it is possible for non-members of the Church to be joined the Church and saved."
I was basically arguing with you in this fashion: even if the point were Church teaching, it wouldn't mean non-members of the Church have in fact been saved, since the Church without doubt does teach that God does not demand the impossible and that it is possible for a man not to sin, although there is no responsible adult for whom that is true - excepting again the unique cases of Our Lord and Our Lady, who received special graces in order to implement the divine will regarding man's redemption.
In short, the teaching, even if true, doesn't mean that non-members of the Church have been or are saved.
Btw, I challenge the teaching and you haven't established it by quoting Msgr. Fenton. But we don't even have to go there, as I said above.
You don't go around trumpeting as truth the presence of men who have not sinned in heaven simply because it is possible for men not to sin, do you?

Do you not understand that people can be in a state of sanctifying grace apart from sacramental Baptism?  

There are historical facts about those who are Saints that are not baptized with water.  
You claim the Church teaches that it is possible for a man not to sin.  She does not teach that.  She teaches it is possible, and has shown historically that one not baptized with water can die in a state of sanctifying grace.  

Again, what is the big problem.  What ABOUT THE ABOVE, do you have a problem with.  Show the supporting docuмentation that contradicts this.  


Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #177 on: August 25, 2017, 02:53:22 PM »
You've been citing theologians, mainly Msgr. Fenton recently, saying that "it is possible for non-members of the Church to be joined the Church and saved."
I was basically arguing with you in this fashion: even if the point were Church teaching, it wouldn't mean non-members of the Church have in fact been saved, since the Church without doubt does teach that God does not demand the impossible and that it is possible for a man not to sin, although there is no responsible adult for whom that is true - excepting again the unique cases of Our Lord and Our Lady, who received special graces in order to implement the divine will regarding man's redemption.
In short, the teaching, even if true, doesn't mean that non-members of the Church have been or are saved.
Btw, I challenge the teaching and you haven't established it by quoting Msgr. Fenton. But we don't even have to go there, as I said above.
You don't go around trumpeting as truth the presence of men who have not sinned in heaven simply because it is possible for men not to sin, do you?
1. Is it possible for man to not sin under NO other terms or conditions? In other words, how exactly would one not sin? Put yet another way, by what way/s and/or means; by what specific causes? There seems to be a great deal of unwarranted assumption that follow this assertion. It was not only possible for the BVM to not sin, but this IS actually the case. It didn't "just happen that way" however.

Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #178 on: August 25, 2017, 03:11:28 PM »
DZ,
I don't get you.
I said it is the actual case that the BVM did not sin due to extraordinary graces received from God.
I'm not at odds with you man. She was just the biggest example to hand. Disregard that bit if it confuses.

Another rephrase, which would normally be bad because it is more technical and "Churchy"

By what causes may a man never sin?

Does this invariably apply to each, every, and all men at all times in all circuмstances, no matter other causes? It seems to be assumed that some lone bushman of the atlantic out scratching himself, by himself, going nuts from cocoanuts, can "somehow" just avoid sinning. "Salvation in a bubble"

Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #179 on: August 25, 2017, 04:43:26 PM »
Of course, the resistance to sin is impossible without grace. It is indeed possible for the bushman not to sin, or else he would not have personal fault.
However, salvation is a matter of efficacious graces which come from the hand of God, which include reception of the sacrament of baptism.  
As Ladislaus said recently, one may accept a version of BOD that entails a somewhat imperfect membership, but that is not non-membership.

This is one of the problems with Msgr. Fenton's terminology, and of course LOT's - nonmembers being saved or joined to the Church.
While that's a good distinction to maintain, I think that I still fail to make my point.

As a Kempis says, "... move humbly on." (paraphrase. orig. not English)

As to the "version"... thread is frayed as is.