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Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?

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Author Topic: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?  (Read 18019 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2017, 11:26:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 24, 2017, 08:10:45 AM
    Hebrews 11: 6 - But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must [1]]believe that he is, and [2] is a rewarder to them that seek him.

    BAM!!!

    Did Saint Paul forget to mention the Incarnation and Holy Trinity?  Why did he not consult Stubborn first!

    St. Paul is teaching that these are required for faith, that they are necessary ... but not that they are sufficient.  You do know the distinction necessary vs. sufficient, right?  St. Thomas did.  That's why he taught otherwise, despite the existence of this particular quote.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #106 on: August 24, 2017, 11:28:00 AM »
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    • "salvific contact"?

    If that isn't a modernist utterance, then I don't know what is.


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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #107 on: August 24, 2017, 11:28:32 AM »
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    This is the section of Catholic doctrine which is most sharply opposed to the spirit of the times in which we live. The enunciation of this truth seems always to be designated as "rigorous" or as something worse by those who are animated by the spirit of the world, whether they are openly enemies of the Church or not. Fenton

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #108 on: August 24, 2017, 11:30:58 AM »
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    • Now that he has been put to shame for deriding St. Thomas Aquinas and "knowing better" than St. Thomas, he's going back into spam mode.

    He does this when he has mental breakdowns.

    Instead of admitting his fault and apologizing for his derision of St. Thomas, he'll ignore this and start spamming.

    LoT's obsession with EENS (or, rather, undermining it) is a mental and spiritual illness.  He's spends his every waking breath trying to undermine the dogma EENS.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #109 on: August 24, 2017, 11:32:16 AM »
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    Yet, if we examine the mentality of this sort of opposition, we find that it is directed ultimately, not against the teachings about the competence and the necessity of the Catholic Church, but actually against the redemptive work of Jesus Christ Our Lord. What is obviously back of objection to this portion of Catholic teaching is the conviction, or at least the claim, that eternal happiness is in some way the native right of all human beings without exception, or at least something within the field of competence of these same human beings. Fenton

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #110 on: August 24, 2017, 11:33:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 02:41:27 PM
    Babies cannot be saved apart from sacramental Baptism.  Why is this distinction made?

    It's a distinction made by BoDers like you.  It's not a proof but a distinction you make in order to force the rest of theology into compliance with your speculations.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #111 on: August 24, 2017, 11:36:35 AM »
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    • Some theologians hold that view at least in regard to those who lived in pagan lands where the Gospel had not yet been preached. 

    St. Alphonsus held it as the "more probable" and "more common" opinion that belief in the Trinity is required by all by necessity of means for salvation. 

    However, he explains all three opinions, i.e. 

    1) that explicit belief in the Trinity is "necessitate medii" for all; 

    2) that explicit belief is "necessitate medii" for all but in some rare cases God makes exception to this; 

    3) that explicit belief in the Trinity is only "necessitate praecepti" and that only implicit belief in the Trinity is required "necessitate medii." 

    He calls this third opinion (which he lists as the second) "also probable enough" and he quotes a number of eminent theologians who hold this opinion. Here is the passage in his works:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=NR48AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA296
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #112 on: August 24, 2017, 11:37:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 02:24:06 PM
    You put words in my mouth because you cannot refute my truth.  Desperate tactic of one who does not want to admit the truth.  

    Evidently you're incapable of following even your own logic.  I asked how, ontologically speaking, did Our Lord "open" the gates of heaven at His Ascension.  You stated that it was by removing Original Sin.

    What you're saying, then, is that the OT just like St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist were still bound by Original Sin.  But they were also clearly in a state of justification.  So they were justified and in Original Sin at the same time ... according to YOUR logic.  Nobody's putting any words in your mouth.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #113 on: August 24, 2017, 11:41:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 24, 2017, 11:36:35 AM
    Some theologians hold that view at least in regard to those who lived in pagan lands where the Gospel had not yet been preached.

    Nice try, but this doesn't pull your ass out of the fire.  You were deriding Stubborn for holding the opinion that explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation ... because your brilliance found an isolated out-of-context quote in Scripture that you interpreted to support Rewarder God theory.

    Consequently, you were deriding St. Thomas.  But you have too much hubris to admit your fault.  Instead you'll go on trying to justify yourself.  You haven't an ounce of humility in you, LoT.  It's also the root cause of your dogmatic sedevacantism.  You are filled with hubris and lack any humility whatsoever.  You have never once retracted a statement or admitted fault in your entire history on CI.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #114 on: August 24, 2017, 11:41:34 AM »
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    Such, however, has not been the case, and any system of thought which bases itself on such false assumptions is completely and fatally unrealistic. As a matter of fact, all mankind, all the progeny of Adam, absolutely needed the forgiveness of sin and the liberation which actually came only through the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus Christ Our Lord. If man's sins had remained unforgiven by God, then man would have been justly and necessarily shut away from the Beatific Vision forever. If man's personal mortal sins had not been forgiven, man would have been justly and necessarily subject to everlasting punishment for those sins. Fenton

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #115 on: August 24, 2017, 11:46:59 AM »
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    • "Is that intrinsic, existential, or superfluous necessity?"
    Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2017, 11:26:47 AM
    St. Paul is teaching that these are required for faith, that they are necessary ... but not that they are sufficient.  You do know the distinction necessary vs. sufficient, right?  St. Thomas did.  That's why he taught otherwise, despite the existence of this particular quote.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #116 on: August 24, 2017, 11:49:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: DZ PLEASE on August 24, 2017, 11:46:59 AM
    "Is that intrinsic, existential, or superfluous necessity?"

    :laugh1:
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #117 on: August 24, 2017, 11:49:44 AM »
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    Once again, if we are to look upon this section of Catholic teaching accurately and objectively, we must take the trouble to realize that Our Lord did not die the terrible death of the Cross for the attainment of any paltry or merely accidental objective. He died to save men from sin and from the penalties of sin. He died to save men from servitude to Satan, the leader of all who are turned against God, and to save them from everlasting exclusion from the Beatific Vision. He died to save them from the everlasting penalties of hell. No one can have this gift of salvation apart from Him. Fenton

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #118 on: August 24, 2017, 11:51:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2017, 11:28:00 AM
    "salvific contact"?

    If that isn't a modernist utterance, then I don't know what is.
    Maybe the idea is to aggiornamentize modernism so much that it catastrophically collapses into a Catholic singularity again.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #119 on: August 24, 2017, 11:53:22 AM »
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    It is a further fact that, in the designs of God's providence, men come into salvific contact with Our Lord in His kingdom or His Mystical Body. Such, as a matter of fact, is the basic concept of God's kingdom even here on earth, for it is inherently the community of God's chosen people. The kingdom of God on earth is the social unit or the company of those who are "saved" in the sense that they are removed from the dominion of the prince of this world. It is the society within which Our Lord dwells and over which He presides as the true and invisible Head. And, in God's Own dispensation, this society, in the period of the New Testament, is the Catholic Church. Fenton

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church
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