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Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2017, 02:16:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 01:41:55 PM
    The process of justification starts with faith, fear, hope, etc.

    Read the entire Treatise on justification in Trent, not just your pet sentence.

    Trent says that these are pre-dispositions for justification, right up through the desire, and that justification itself FOLLOWS AFTER these (including the desire) in the reception of the Sacrament.  That's another strong argument against BoD in Trent.

    Trent lists the dispositions for justification ... right up through the desire.
    Trent then says that justification FOLLOWS AFTER these when the Sacrament of Baptism is received.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #91 on: August 23, 2017, 02:17:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
    Both St. John the Baptist and St. Joseph died in the Old Dispensation. It was replaced by the New. As soon as Christ opened Heaven, they both went there. I get really angry when I see such idiotic stuff being thrown out by armchair theologian who do not have the faintest idea about anything.

    God CAN do anything He wants? Yes, because whatever He cannot do, He also cannot want. But it is false to say, strictly speaking, that God can do anything. There are a lot of things God cannot do. For example, He cannot sin, He cannot fail, He cannot cease to exist, He cannot create another God, etc.

    We’re not interested in how Fr. Feeney answered anything but in how the Catholic Church answers these questions.
    … and yet it yaks on, and on, and on …

    What's this sub calledd again?
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #92 on: August 23, 2017, 02:20:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 01:43:11 PM
    The cleansing of the soul from Original Sin.  Sanctifying grace is what makes us children of God and heirs of heaven.  

    So you're saying that one can be in a state of Original Sin and in a state of sanctifying grace at the same time.  Please 'splain.  That's an interesting BoDist conundrum (among the many paradoxes under which BoDers labor).

    Plus, you're wrong.  It's the CHARACTER of Baptism that likens the soul to the image of His Son so that we're recognized by the Father as His sons in the spirit of adoption and therefore able to participate in the inner life of the Holy Trinity, aka the Beatific Vision.  This being "children of God" is not merely some legal fiction (as the Protestants would have it) but an ontological reshaping of the soul that takes place through the character of Baptism.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #93 on: August 23, 2017, 02:23:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 23, 2017, 02:16:33 PM
    Read the entire Treatise on justification in Trent, not just your pet sentence.

    Trent says that these are pre-dispositions for justification, right up through the desire, and that justification itself FOLLOWS AFTER these (including the desire) in the reception of the Sacrament.  That's another strong argument against BoD in Trent.

    Trent lists the dispositions for justification ... right up through the desire.
    Trent then says that justification FOLLOWS AFTER these when the Sacrament of Baptism is received.
    You pit the Church against the Church.  This speaks ignorance or willful blindness.  I'll pray you gain the humility to get out of the Church of Ladislaus.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #94 on: August 23, 2017, 02:24:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 23, 2017, 02:20:35 PM
    So you're saying that one can be in a state of Original Sin and in a state of sanctifying grace at the same time.  Please 'splain.  That's an interesting BoDist conundrum (among the many paradoxes under which BoDers labor).

    Plus, you're wrong.  It's the CHARACTER of Baptism that likens the soul to the image of His Son so that we're recognized by the Father as His sons in the spirit of adoption and therefore able to participate in the inner life of the Holy Trinity, aka the Beatific Vision.  This being "children of God" is not merely some legal fiction (as the Protestants would have it) but an ontological reshaping of the soul that takes place through the character of Baptism.
    You put words in my mouth because you cannot refute my truth.  Desperate tactic of one who does not want to admit the truth.  
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #95 on: August 23, 2017, 02:41:27 PM »
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    • Babies cannot be saved apart from sacramental Baptism.  Why is this distinction made?  Because adults can, if and when sacramental baptism is impossible for them.  

    Adults can will. Babies cannot. And because adults can will, they can love. They can make an act of perfect contrition. And acts of faith and hope and charity.
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #96 on: August 23, 2017, 02:54:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 02:41:27 PM
    Babies cannot be saved apart from sacramental Baptism.  Why is this distinction made?  Because adults can, if and when sacramental baptism is impossible for them.  
    Again you come up with this lying excuse of there being some situation where it is impossible for God to provide a minister and some water to baptize the sincere adult.

    You never answered me so may as well add this one to the list.......describe the scenario wherein God finds it impossible to provide the sacrament of baptism to the sincere adult.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #97 on: August 23, 2017, 04:24:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 23, 2017, 02:41:27 PM
    Babies cannot be saved apart from sacramental Baptism.  Why is this distinction made?  Because adults can, if and when sacramental baptism is impossible for them.  
    Since there is no hope of you ever answering with any possible (or impossible) scenario wherein God finds it impossible to provide the sacrament of baptism to the sincere adult -  certainly not anything you can come up with,  with any coherent answer easily discernible to Catholic ears, I will leave you with the correct answer, quoted directly from the good Fr. Feeney.........

    "There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the skeptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you."

    This truth can be repeated an infinite number of times since creation till the end of the world - it will always remain true and appreciated - to Catholics.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #98 on: August 24, 2017, 08:10:45 AM »
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    • Hebrews 11: 6 - But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must [1]]believe that he is, and [2] is a rewarder to them that seek him.

    BAM!!!

    Did Saint Paul forget to mention the Incarnation and Holy Trinity?  Why did he not consult Stubborn first!
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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #99 on: August 24, 2017, 10:01:12 AM »
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    • John 3:[5]  Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, *unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    [5] "Unless a man be born again": By these words our Saviour hath declared the necessity of baptism; and by the word water it is evident that the application of it is necessary with the words. Matt. 28. 19.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #100 on: August 24, 2017, 10:09:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Lover of Truth on August 24, 2017, 08:10:45 AM
    Hebrews 11: 6 - But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God, must [1]]believe that he is, and [2] is a rewarder to them that seek him.

    BAM!!!

    Did Saint Paul forget to mention the Incarnation and Holy Trinity?  Why did he not consult Stubborn first!

    And you know better than St. Thomas, rectal orifice?

    Notice how this demonic vermin slithers away from Rewarder God theory when questioned on it but then turns around and promotes it at every turn.

    Like any Protestant heretic, he cites one line out of context in Scripture as proof for his position and derides St. Thomas.

    You might as well take your statement above and address it to St. Thomas, bonehead:

    "BAM!!!  Did Saint Paul forget to mention the Incarnation and Holy Trinity?  Why did he not consult Thomas Aquinas first!"

    You arrogant hypocrtical scuм you.

    This demon hates the dogma EENS and wishes all manner of infidel to be within the Church.  Bottom line.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #101 on: August 24, 2017, 10:35:36 AM »
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    • The man is a Conciliarist, born and raised.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #102 on: August 24, 2017, 10:55:18 AM »
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    • Quote
    The adult who dies in the state of mortal sin, whether his original sin has been remitted in the sacrament of baptism or not, will not only be excluded from the possession of the Beatific Vision, but will also be punished for his unrepented offenses against God. And, since there is no forgiveness of sin apart from the Catholic Church, the Mystical body of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation for the individual who passes from this life "outside" the Catholic Church. The person who dies with unremitted mortal sins against God will not only be excluded from the Beatific Vision (thus suffering the penalty of loss), but will also receive the punishment due to the sin for which he has not repented (the penalty of sense). Fenton

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #103 on: August 24, 2017, 10:57:43 AM »
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    • Not to mention his masterful "Johnny Blaze" conclusion jumping over viable alternatives. Just when his copypasta would be quite filling, he leaves the plate empty. Pretty odd potential pattern there, esp. when it comes to playing scripture Twister®©™

    In these instances, wouldn't it be best to FIRST see what She says?

    Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2017, 10:09:52 AM
    And you know better than St. Thomas, rectal orifice?

    Notice how this demonic vermin slithers away from Rewarder God theory when questioned on it but then turns around and promotes it at every turn.

    Like any Protestant heretic, he cites one line out of context in Scripture as proof for his position and derides St. Thomas.

    You might as well take your statement above and address it to St. Thomas, bonehead:

    "BAM!!!  Did Saint Paul forget to mention the Incarnation and Holy Trinity?  Why did he not consult Thomas Aquinas first!"

    You arrogant hypocrtical scuм you.

    This demon hates the dogma EENS and wishes all manner of infidel to be within the Church.  Bottom line.
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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #104 on: August 24, 2017, 10:59:38 AM »
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    • Quote
    The key truth in all of this portion of sacred theology is the fact that the Catholic Church is actually the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. In order to be saved from the condition in which we place ourselves by our own mortal sins, we must be in salvific contact with our Divine Redeemer. And the one and only social unit within which this salvific contact can be made is the institution which St. Paul designated as the body of Christ, the society we know as the Catholic Church. Fenton

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church
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