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Poll

Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?  (Read 17978 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2017, 09:48:11 AM »
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  • Again it is Alphonsus' and Bellarmine's interpretation. You ignore this fact and pretend I made it up in order to save face.  This is sad that you deny Catholic teaching in order to preserve the feeneyite heresy.  
    Just answer the question. What do the great Doctors of the Church say that Pius IX rrreeeaaally meant at The First Vatican Council when he infallibly decreed: "Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #61 on: August 23, 2017, 10:55:20 AM »
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  • Just answer the question. What do the great Doctors of the Church say that Pius IX rrreeeaaally meant at The First Vatican Council when he infallibly decreed: "Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."
    You don't grant the point but switch topics.  Then rely on great Doctors whom you reject.  The short answer is:

    Because it's true.  You can check the Oath Against Modernism for that as well if you like.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #62 on: August 23, 2017, 11:13:05 AM »
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  • If you cannot or if you will not answer the question, just say so, but at least acknowledge you have no idea how to answer or that you've at least read the question.

    The topic is Trent said you are anathema for saying the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation.

    You say the sacrament is not necessary because some of the great Doctors said as much.

    So you completely surrender your brain and any reading comprehension to oppose what Trent said clearly and wholly reject what V1 decreed for absolutely no reason - and no, the mistaken speculations of some of the great Doctors does not give you a free pass to promote your heresies. But I'm sorry to say that one thing is certain - you'll find that out soon enough. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #63 on: August 23, 2017, 11:16:27 AM »
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  • If you cannot or if you will not answer the question, just say so, but at least acknowledge you have no idea how to answer or that you've at least read the question.

    The topic is Trent said you are anathema for saying the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation.

    You say the sacrament is not necessary because some of the great Doctors said as much.

    So you completely surrender your brain and any reading comprehension to oppose what Trent said clearly and wholly reject what V1 decreed for absolutely no reason - and no, the mistaken speculations of some of the great Doctors does not give you a free pass to promote your heresies. But I'm sorry to say that one thing is certain - you'll find that out soon enough.
    I did answer the question and you admit you disagree with Bellarmine and Alphonsus.  Any good willed person can see where the truth lies.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #64 on: August 23, 2017, 12:00:50 PM »
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  • … and the "truth" LIES and lay with its "lover"
    I did answer the question and you admit you disagree with Bellarmine and Alphonsus.  Any good willed person can see where the truth lies.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #65 on: August 23, 2017, 12:02:24 PM »
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  • … and the "truth" LIES and lay with its "lover"
    Excellent refutation.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #66 on: August 23, 2017, 12:05:17 PM »
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  • Alphonsus understands Trent
    Bellarmine understands Trent
    Pax Vobis does not.

    Father Feeney's interpretation of Trent isn't any different from theirs -- he simply draws different implications from the justification vs. salvation distinction.  But I personally disagree with this interpretation.  I don't think that Trent is teaching "either ... or" (for many reasons that I've articulated and no one's ever refuted).  Yet I don't disagree with Father Feeney's general distinction between justification and salvation.  I believe it's valid and very real.

    So, according to the strict Father Feeney position (which I don't follow 100%), Trent has nothing to do with it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #67 on: August 23, 2017, 12:05:49 PM »
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  • Excellent refutation.

    Honestly, it's not any worse than most of your best efforts, LoT.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #68 on: August 23, 2017, 12:07:52 PM »
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  • Father Feeney's interpretation of Trent isn't any different from theirs -- he simply draws different implications from the justification vs. salvation distinction.  But I personally disagree with this interpretation.  I don't think that Trent is teaching "either ... or" (for many reasons that I've articulated and no one's ever refuted).  Yet I don't disagree with Father Feeney's general distinction between justification and salvation.  I believe it's valid and very real.

    So, according to the strict Father Feeney position (which I don't follow 100%), Trent has nothing to do with it.
    The "different implication" is the difference between doctrine and heresy.  Incredible.  Do you even believe yourself?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #69 on: August 23, 2017, 12:08:35 PM »
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  • [size={defaultattr}]
    Does that sound familiar to you?

    That was the question.  How is the question wrong?[/size]

    I'm obviously talking about your poll question and the very title of your thread.

    ":Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?"

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #70 on: August 23, 2017, 12:10:27 PM »
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  • I'm obviously talking about your poll question and the very title of your thread.

    ":Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?"
    'splain to me Lucy how one can be justified and not in a state of sanctifying grace.  Please use supporting docuмentation.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #71 on: August 23, 2017, 12:10:40 PM »
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  • The "different implication" is the difference between doctrine and heresy.  Incredible.  Do you even believe yourself?

    No heresy at all ... except in your positions.  Denial of BoD is NOT heresy by any stretch of the imagination.  Pelagianism IS heresy, so is denial of EENS, so is your ecclesiology, and so is your rejection of the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #72 on: August 23, 2017, 12:11:39 PM »
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  • 'splain to me Lucy how one can be justified and not in a state of sanctifying grace.  Please use supporting docuмentation.  

    Nobody is saying that, dumbass.  That's my point.  That's why it's the wrong question.  I've explained this at least 4 times now but you can't comprehend this.  We're saying that justification is not the same as salvation and does not suffice for the beatific vision.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #73 on: August 23, 2017, 12:14:13 PM »
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  • No heresy at all ... except in your positions.  Denial of BoD is NOT heresy by any stretch of the imagination.  Pelagianism IS heresy, so is denial of EENS, so is your ecclesiology, and so is your rejection of the dogma that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.
    Again false accusations.  This is what the Church of Ladislaus is left with.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #74 on: August 23, 2017, 12:15:29 PM »
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  • Nobody is saying that, dumbass.  That's my point.  That's why it's the wrong question.  I've explained this at least 4 times now but you can't comprehend this.  We're saying that justification is not the same as salvation and does not suffice for the beatific vision.
    So one that is in a state of sanctifying grace can be deprived of the beatific vision?  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church