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Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?  (Read 17974 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2017, 02:35:49 PM »
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  • Well yes, that is  what Fr. Feeney taught. He taught that because that is the actual canon from Trent - what would you expect him to teach, that the sacrament is optional? Of course not.

    You asked the question, I gave you Trent's answer, you say Trent is wrong. Same o same o.
    The novelty was in teaching that one who dies justified will not go to heaven.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #46 on: August 22, 2017, 02:42:26 PM »
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  • The novelty was in teaching that one who dies justified will not go to heaven.
    Your novelty is one not baptized can still attain salvation.

    But that is insufficient because God made reception of the sacrament necessary, which Trent echoed and defined infallibly - but you cannot get that through your think liberal skull.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #47 on: August 22, 2017, 02:45:04 PM »
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  • Your novelty is one not baptized can still attain salvation.

    But that is insufficient because God made reception of the sacrament necessary, which Trent echoed and defined infallibly - but you cannot get that through your think liberal skull.
    It is not my novelty.  It is necessary with a relative necessity of means.  We do not dispute that.  It is not intrinsically necessary.  One who avoids it will be damned.  One who does not know about it through no fault of his own will not be damned for that reason and will be saved if he dies justified.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #48 on: August 22, 2017, 03:21:16 PM »
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  • It is not my novelty.  It is necessary with a relative necessity of means.  We do not dispute that.  It is not intrinsically necessary. 
    Well, we are certain that it is not optional because we have Trent infallibly saying it is not optional - that makes it intrinsically necessary.


    Quote
    One who avoids it will be damned.  One who does not know about it through no fault of his own will not be damned for that reason and will be saved if he dies justified. 
    One who does not receive it will be damned, the reason for this is because of his own free will he rejected the graces offered to go and have it done.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #49 on: August 22, 2017, 03:35:36 PM »
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  • How can one desire baptism if he doesn't know about?


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #50 on: August 23, 2017, 08:15:32 AM »
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  • Well, we are certain that it is not optional because we have Trent infallibly saying it is not optional - that makes it intrinsically necessary.

    One who does not receive it will be damned, the reason for this is because of his own free will he rejected the graces offered to go and have it done.
    Bellarmine, Alphonsus, Pius IX and Pius XII should have consulted you on the proper interpretation of Trent.  
    And you really believe the erred or did not teach what they taught.  This is mind-boggling.  You have been sufficiently brain-washed unless it is a damnable willful blindness you have.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #51 on: August 23, 2017, 09:16:16 AM »
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  • Bellarmine, Alphonsus, Pius IX and Pius XII should have consulted you on the proper interpretation of Trent.  
    And you really believe the erred or did not teach what they taught.  This is mind-boggling.  You have been sufficiently brain-washed unless it is a damnable willful blindness you have.
    When Trent says "If any one saith that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema." All that really matter is that because YOU say "the sacrament is optional", that is, YOU say "the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation", per Trent, YOU are anathema.

    Do you understand that much, or do you honestly need one of the Church Fathers to interpret that for you too?

    At any rate, as I said, same o same o - you asked a question, I gave you the answer quoted directly from Trent, you keep trying to prove Trent is wrong. Wash, rinse, repeat.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #52 on: August 23, 2017, 09:18:13 AM »
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  • When Trent says "If any one saith that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema." All that really matter is that because YOU say "the sacrament is optional", that is, YOU say "the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation", per Trent, YOU are anathema.

    Do you understand that much, or do you honestly need one of the Church Fathers to interpret that for you too?

    At any rate, as I said, same o same o - you asked a question, I gave you the answer quoted directly from Trent, you keep trying to prove Trent is wrong. Wash, rinse, repeat.
    Again, I stand by what I say, you can better interpret Trent than the great Doctors of the Church.  This is quite amazing.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #53 on: August 23, 2017, 09:32:40 AM »
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  • Again, I stand by what I say, you can better interpret Trent than the great Doctors of the Church.  This is quite amazing.
    You stand in quick sand and do not understand the simplest of dogmas that even a 5 year old easily and completely understands.

    This is what is quite amazing.

    It will likely surprise you that some +200 years after the death of St. Robert and some 90 years after the death of  St. Alphonsus, there was a Council called "The First Vatican Council". Now it is your responsibility to provide a quote from one of the great Doctors of the Church to interpret this infallible teaching from Pope Pius IX at The First Vatican Council so we know what he rrreeeeaaallly meant - otherwise, how will we ever know?

    "Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."


    Well, what do the great Doctors of the Church interpret the above doctrine to rrreeeeaaallly mean?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #54 on: August 23, 2017, 09:36:25 AM »
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  • You stand in quick sand and do not understand the simplest of dogmas that even a 5 year old easily and completely understands.

    This is what is quite amazing.

    It will likely surprise you that some +200 years after the death of St. Robert and some 90 years after the death of  St. Alphonsus, there was a Council called "The First Vatican Council". Now it is your responsibility to provide a quote from one of the great Doctors of the Church to interpret this infallible teaching from Pope Pius IX at The First Vatican Council so we know what he rrreeeeaaallly meant - otherwise, how will we ever know?

    "Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."


    Well, what do the great Doctors of the Church interpret the above doctrine to rrreeeeaaallly mean?

    Quote
    St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church (16th century): De Sacramento Baptismi, cap. 6: “...among the ancients this proposition was not so certain at first as later on: that perfect conversion and repentance is rightly called the Baptism of Desire and supplies for Baptism of water, at least in case of necessity”....."it is certainly to be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when it is not from contempt but through necessity that persons die without Baptism of water.”

    The Church Militant (De Ecclesia Militante), c. 3: "I answer therefore that, when it is said outside the Church no one is saved, it must be understood of those who belong to her neither in actual fact nor in desire [desiderio], as theologians commonly speak on baptism. Because the catechumens are in the Church, though not in actual fact, yet at least in resolution [voto], therefore they can be saved."

    The Church Militant De Ecclesia Militante, c. 3: "Concerning catechumens there is a greater difficulty, because they are faithful [have the faith] and can be saved if they die in this state, and yet outside the Church no one is saved, as outside the ark of Noah…" 

    The Church Militant (De Ecclesia Militante), c. 2: "Others, however, are of the soul but not of the body (of the Church), as Catechumens and those who have been excommunicated, who may have faith and charity which is possible."

    De Controversiis, “De Baptismo,” Lib. I, Cap. VI: “But without doubt it must be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when one dies without Baptism of water not out of contempt but out of necessity... For it is expressly said in Ezechiel: If the wicked shall do penance from his sins, I will no more remember his iniquities...Thus also the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire (in re vel in voto)”.
     
    Quote
    St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century): Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" (Note: Unbelievers can see the original book in Latin here. Turn to page 310 in the book (or page 157 of the PDF file).

     Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-97: "Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato… Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view is at least temerarious."

    On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."
    They missed the boat on their interpretation of Trent according to you?
     
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #55 on: August 23, 2017, 09:37:56 AM »
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  • Just answer my question, proclaim the dogma as decreed at Trent is wrong, or admit you're a heretic.

    You have no other choices.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #56 on: August 23, 2017, 09:41:07 AM »
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  • The sky is blue.

    Per LOT, this requires interpretation, because he is used to the mental confusion of V2.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #57 on: August 23, 2017, 09:43:33 AM »
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  • The sky is blue.

    Per LOT, this requires interpretation, because he is used to the mental confusion of V2.
    Again it is Alphonsus' and Bellarmine's interpretation. You ignore this fact and pretend I made it up in order to save face.  This is sad that you deny Catholic teaching in order to preserve the feeneyite heresy.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #58 on: August 23, 2017, 09:44:50 AM »
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  • Trent = infallible. 

    St Alphonsus = fallible
    St Bellarmine = fallible

    Repeat this 100x til it sinks in.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #59 on: August 23, 2017, 09:46:17 AM »
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  • Trent = infallible.

    St Alphonsus = fallible
    St Bellarmine = fallible

    Repeat this 100x til it sinks in.
    Alphonsus understands Trent
    Bellarmine understands Trent
    Pax Vobis does not.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church