To get around the Catholic teaching of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost Feeney, while understanding that Trent taught that one can be justified by desire denied that such a one would go to Heaven.

The modern Feeneyites deny that Trent teaches that one can be justified by desire.  Not sure if they believe it possible for one to be justified and not in a state of sanctifying grace or not.  Wouldn't be surprised if they are all over the board on this.

The Feeneyites will be afraid to vote for fear of admitting or denying too much and proven wrong again, but the Catholics are welcome to vote as well.

Justification is not a guarantee of, nor is it the same thing as salvation. Do not be fooled by liberal trickery.

No one is responding because this has nothing to do with the Feeneyite position.  Justification by definition refers to being in a state of grace.  What we say is that justification alone does not suffice for salvation.  Again, no one responded because this is stupid and irrelevant.

Of course you'll try to cite the Baius condemnation, but it's completely irrelevant here.  I debunked this when Nishant tried to use it and he had no refutation for my argument.

The BODers ask the question, what happens to a person that is justified before they are baptized, then dies. The answer is that they can't be truly justified except through baptism.

It is just common sense if one understands that our conversion and our faith is totally a gift from God. He gives us the knowledge and the impulse to do every milimeter of move in His direction. Why would God "justify" a person before baptism and then pull the rug out from him? It is a ridiculous question, and exactly what I've been saying for years.

The Ridiculous Question:

What happens to a person who is "justified" before he is baptized, then dies before baptism?

(The ludicrous response, the response of 99.99% of the false BODers just shows the insanity the question leads to: Jєωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists etc. can be saved by their belief in a rewarder god.

and rightly St. Augustine called it the vortex of confusion:

St. Augustine on the Errors of Pelagius said:
If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

The instrumental cause of True Justification is the Sacrament of Baptism as Trent teaches. One can be Baptized and lose their state of Grace through mortal sin, which is why we NEED the Sacrament of Penance. This restores our Justification.

The answer is no.


Council of Trent Session 6:

CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circuмcision, availeth anything, nor uncircuмcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

CHAPTER XIV.
On the fallen, and their restoration.

As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may be again justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of Penance they shall have attained to the recovery, by the merit of Christ, of the grace lost: for this manner of Justification is of the fallen the reparation: which the holy Fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost. For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance, when He said, Receive ye the Holy Ghost, whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament,-but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, to those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Spirit, and have not feared to violate the temple of God. Concerning which penitence it is written; Be mindful whence thou art fallen; do penance, and do the first works. And again; The sorrow that is according to God worketh penance steadfast unto salvation. And again; Do penance, and bring forth fruits worthy of penance.

We know what Trent teaches.  Bellarmine, Alphonsus, Pius IX and Pius XII knew what it taught.  You need to show how one can be baptized only through sacramental baptism?  You have to show how the above sources didn't teach what they appeared to teach. 

Of course you'll try to cite the Baius condemnation, but it's completely irrelevant here.  I debunked this when Nishant tried to use it and he had no refutation for my argument.

Actually what you post is irrelevant here and most other places as you debunk things in your own mind while proving yourself to be a prideful heretic.

Proponents of Baptism of Desire are unanimous (I believe) that BOD is not a Sacrament right? The Council of Trent infallibly declares that all True Justice either begins, increases, or is restored with the Sacraments right (see below)? BOD proponents believe that those who receive a BOD are in the state of Justification before the Sacrament of Baptism right? I hope that BODers can maybe start to see their error here.


BOD is not a Sacrament + True Justification only begins with the Sacrament of Baptism = BOD cannot Justify.


Council of Trent, Decree on the Sacraments, Sess. 7, Foreward:"For the completion of the salutary doctrine on Justification, which was promulgated with the unanimous consent of the Fathers in the last preceding Session, it hath seemed suitable to treat of the most holy Sacraments of the Church, through which all true justice either begins, or being begun is increased, or being lost is repaired. With this view, in order to destroy the errors and to extirpate the heresies, which have appeared in these our days on the subject of the said most holy sacraments,-as well those which have been revived from the heresies condemned of old by our Fathers, as also those newly invented, and which are exceedingly prejudicial to the purity of the Catholic Church, and to the salvation of souls..."

You act as if the "BOD proponents" which include the Catechisms, theologians, Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes teach that once one realizes the necessity of Baptism that they can simply purposely avoid it and just desire it in order to be saved.  This manifests either and incredible amount of ignorance or extreme intellectual dishonesty.  It could even be both but it is certainly not neither.