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Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?  (Read 17969 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2017, 12:16:17 PM »
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  • I did answer the question and you admit you disagree with Bellarmine and Alphonsus.  Any good willed person can see where the truth lies.
    You did not nor have you answered any questions, all you do is keep trying to prove Trent is wrong.

    I wholly agree with Trent, I disagree with you and with the speculations of everyone and anyone who disagrees with Trent's explicit teaching that the sacrament is not optional, and whoever says the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation is cursed - this means you because saying this is your lex orandi.

    The truth lies with Trent, with which you reject and I wholly accept as it is written.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #76 on: August 23, 2017, 12:20:04 PM »
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  • You did not nor have you answered any questions, all you do is keep trying to prove Trent is wrong.

    I wholly agree with Trent, I disagree with you and with the speculations of everyone and anyone who disagrees with Trent's explicit teaching that the sacrament is not optional, and whoever says the sacrament is not necessary unto salvation is cursed - this means you because saying this is your lex orandi.

    The truth lies with Trent, with which you reject and I wholly accept as it is written.
    I do hope against all odds you and the Dimonds make to the same place as all the Fathers, Saints, Doctors and Popes that are enjoying the Beatific Vison whom you dare to claim are erroneous have a happy reunion.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #77 on: August 23, 2017, 12:51:52 PM »
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  • No words suffice for a wicked will. How many cooks does this broth need? What maKes me so suited? Nothing. Doesnt surprise me when the truth challenged "confuse" a bit of court jestery, with argumentation.

    Honestly, it's not any worse than most of your best efforts, LoT.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #78 on: August 23, 2017, 12:53:20 PM »
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  • No words suffice for a wicked will. How many cooks does this broth need? What maKes me so suited? Nothing. Doesnt surprise me when the truth challenged "confuse" a bit of court jestery, with argumentation.
    Words of the heretics on a Catholic forum.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #79 on: August 23, 2017, 12:53:52 PM »
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  • So one that is in a state of sanctifying grace can be deprived of the beatific vision?  

    Ask St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist.  They were in a state of sanctifying grace but deprived of the beatific vision.

    Define "can".  God CAN do anything He wants.

    I answer this the same way that Father Feeney did, that we do not know what happens.  I am of the opinion that God will not let anyone die in this state ... justification without the Sacrament.  If He were to allow it, then they could end up in a limbo type of state, basically perfect natural happiness ... only without the beatific vision.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #80 on: August 23, 2017, 12:54:14 PM »
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  • That is the best thing to do when denying the truth.  Just make fun of the one who presents it.  Quite Catholic of you.   :applause:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #81 on: August 23, 2017, 12:56:16 PM »
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  • Ask St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist.  They were in a state of sanctifying grace but deprived of the beatific vision.

    Define "can".  God CAN do anything He wants.

    I answer this the same way that Father Feeney did, that we do not know what happens.  I am of the opinion that God will not let anyone die in this state ... justification without the Sacrament.  If He were to allow it, then they could end up in a limbo type of state, basically perfect natural happiness ... only without the beatific vision.
    :facepalm: 
    These guys truly have their own religion.  
    Christ opened the Kingdom of Heaven to us at His Ascension.  Hello?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #82 on: August 23, 2017, 01:03:24 PM »
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  • Which he then punctuates with emoti-MOCKERY.

    People in ass houses…

    "Stop hitting yourself!" *smack
    That is the best thing to do when denying the truth.  Just make fun of the one who presents it.  Quite Catholic of you.   :applause:
    "Quite heretic of you!"


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #83 on: August 23, 2017, 01:39:08 PM »
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  • :facepalm:
    These guys truly have their own religion.  
    Christ opened the Kingdom of Heaven to us at His Ascension.  Hello?

    Duh, but how?  What's the underlying ontology?  It wasn't a question of Our Lord opening some physical gate.  What does it mean to "open" heaven?  There's some ontological change in the souls that allowed them to enjoy the Beatific Vision.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #84 on: August 23, 2017, 01:41:55 PM »
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  • The process of justification starts with faith, fearhope, etc.  It is completed when when one loves God with the love of friendship i.e. when he has obtained a supernatural charity.  This is when the sinner is transformed form the state of sin to that of justification or sanctifying grace. This process can be obtained without baptism when sacramental baptism is impossible such as when one, through no fault of his own, is not aware of the necessity of baptism.  

    Babies cannot obtain sanctifying grace apart from baptism.  The implication is that adults can.

    This is obtained by sacramental baptism or for those when sacramental baptism is impossible, through no fault of their own, the love God with a supernatural love which constitutes at least an implicit desire for the Sacrament.  

    Thus the justified are not denied the beatific vision over a technicality.  

    Water Baptism - Necessary with a relative necessity of means does not trump sanctifying grace, supernatural faith and charity, necessary with an absolute or intrinsic necessity.  For the Feeneyite the relative necessity trumps the absolute necessity faith.  How they get themselves in this hole with all the teachings to the contrary at their fingertips I do not know.  

    God works spiritually.  He is not forced raise the dead and come down and physically baptize with water one who died without baptism.  This was obvious in better times.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #85 on: August 23, 2017, 01:43:11 PM »
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  • Duh, but how?  What's the underlying ontology?  It wasn't a question of Our Lord opening some physical gate.  What does it mean to "open" heaven?  There's some ontological change in the souls that allowed them to enjoy the Beatific Vision.
    The cleansing of the soul from Original Sin.  Sanctifying grace is what makes us children of God and heirs of heaven.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #86 on: August 23, 2017, 01:48:45 PM »
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  • The cleansing of the soul from Original Sin.  Sanctifying grace is what makes us children of God and heirs of heaven.  
    Where did you get that ignorance?

    It is the sacrament of baptism that makes us children of God and heirs to heaven - look it up in the Baltimore Catechism for 1st graders. This is something that being taught in 1st grade, you were expected to remember for the rest of your life.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #87 on: August 23, 2017, 02:03:13 PM »
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  • Where did you get that ignorance?

    It is the sacrament of baptism that makes us children of God and heirs to heaven - look it up in the Baltimore Catechism for 1st graders. This is something that being taught in 1st grade, you were expected to remember for the rest of your life.
    The Catechism you don't trust on BOD.  :facepalm:
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #88 on: August 23, 2017, 02:05:15 PM »
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  • Oops, my bad, I forgot you, being born and raised in the anti-church learned the anti-church's faith that it only takes sanctifying grace is what makes us children of God and heirs of heaven.

    Well, the rest of us who were born and raised in the Catholic Church were taught the sacrament of baptism is the only way to be made children of God and heirs to heaven. You really should try hard as you possibly can to rid yourself of anti-church religion before you post any more.

    Can we at least agree on that much?

    ,
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #89 on: August 23, 2017, 02:11:38 PM »
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  • Ask St. Joseph and St. John the Baptist.  They were in a state of sanctifying grace but deprived of the beatific vision.

    Define "can".  God CAN do anything He wants.

    I answer this the same way that Father Feeney did, that we do not know what happens.  I am of the opinion that God will not let anyone die in this state ... justification without the Sacrament.  If He were to allow it, then they could end up in a limbo type of state, basically perfect natural happiness ... only without the beatific vision.
    Both St. John the Baptist and St. Joseph died in the Old Dispensation. It was replaced by the New. As soon as Christ opened Heaven, they both went there. I get really angry when I see such idiotic stuff being thrown out by armchair theologian who do not have the faintest idea about anything.

    God CAN do anything He wants? Yes, because whatever He cannot do, He also cannot want. But it is false to say, strictly speaking, that God can do anything. There are a lot of things God cannot do. For example, He cannot sin, He cannot fail, He cannot cease to exist, He cannot create another God, etc.

    We’re not interested in how Fr. Feeney answered anything but in how the Catholic Church answers these questions.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church