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Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?  (Read 17952 times)

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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
« Reply #120 on: August 24, 2017, 11:56:26 AM »
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  • mixing of times and tenses. e.g. "hold" v "held"

    be advised alcon

    Some theologians hold that view at least in regard to those who lived in pagan lands where the Gospel had not yet been preached.

    St. Alphonsus held it as the "more probable" and "more common" opinion that belief in the Trinity is required by all by necessity of means for salvation.

    However, he explains all three opinions, i.e.

    1) that explicit belief in the Trinity is "necessitate medii" for all;

    2) that explicit belief is "necessitate medii" for all but in some rare cases God makes exception to this;

    3) that explicit belief in the Trinity is only "necessitate praecepti" and that only implicit belief in the Trinity is required "necessitate medii."

    He calls this third opinion (which he lists as the second) "also probable enough" and he quotes a number of eminent theologians who hold this opinion. Here is the passage in his works:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=NR48AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA296

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #121 on: August 24, 2017, 11:58:04 AM »
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    Some of those who have written with what seems to be the avowed intention of weakening or obscuring this section of Catholic doctrine have admitted (as anyone who claims to be a Catholic must admit) that there is no salvation apart from Our Lord's redemption, but have likewise taught that we do not know the direction of those graces which God gives, through Our Lord, to those who are outside the Catholic Church. This assertion is definitely untrue. Fenton

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #122 on: August 24, 2017, 12:32:55 PM »
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    Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised, and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, [1] must believe that he is, and [2] is a rewarder to them that seek him; [even Trent only mentions two necessities, why didn't they check with the Church of Ladislaus first?] and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.
    So as those far more competent than the bloggers on this site have taught from the begging and every where.  Faith can be obtained by adults apart before baptism.

    BAM!!!

    Be of good cheer former feeneyites who see the truth above, and those who plug their ears and gnash their teeth like the Jews did to Saint Stephen, we can only pray that you gain the humility to accept the truth before you die and cease with your dishonesty acting as if I invented all this stuff and that Trent denies the possibility of being justified except by baptism.  Cease your dishonest sinful lying.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #124 on: August 24, 2017, 12:40:11 PM »
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    All of the supernatural aids granted by God to any man tend to lead him to the eternal possession of the Beatific Vision. They likewise direct him toward those realities which, either by their very nature or by God's own institution, are requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. One of those realities is the visible Catholic Church, the religious society over which the Bishop of Rome presides as the Vicar of Christ on earth. The graces which God grants to any man outside the Church will inevitably guide him in the direction of the Church. Fenton

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #125 on: August 24, 2017, 01:03:54 PM »
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  • Fenton sounds more and more like a modernist with each quote you paste.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #126 on: August 24, 2017, 01:05:33 PM »
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    If a man continues faithful to the graces given him by God he will certainly attain to eternal salvation. And he will just as certainly obtain that salvation "within" the true Church of Jesus Christ. God's grace will lead a man in the direction of justification, according to the pattern set forth in the teaching of the Council of Trent. It will direct him to believe God's revealed message with a certain assent based on the authority of God Himself revealing. It will lead him in the direction of salutary fear and of hope and of initial love of God and of penance. Ultimately it will lead him to a desire of baptism, even though, in some cases, that desire may be only implicit in character. And baptism is of itself the gateway to the Church, the Mystical body of Christ, within which the life of grace and salvation are to be found. In the case of a man who is already baptized, the preparation for justification includes an intention (at least implicit) of remaining within the kingdom of God to which baptism itself is the gateway. Fenton

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #127 on: August 24, 2017, 01:28:56 PM »
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  • Hard to go "corps a corps" without getting enemy on you.
    Fenton sounds more and more like a modernist with each quote you paste.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #128 on: August 24, 2017, 01:30:33 PM »
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    It is both idle and misleading to characterize the teaching of the Cantate Domino as in any way "rigorous" or exigent [demanding - J.G.]. This doctrine, which is standard Catholic teaching, is only the expression of what God has taught about the place of His Son's Mystical Body in the economy of man's salvation. Neither the Catholic Church itself nor the teachers of the Church have made the Church something requisite for the attainment of the Beatific Vision. When the Church makes the sort of statement that is found in the Cantate Domino, it is acting merely as the teacher of what God Himself has revealed. As the Mystical Body of Christ, the society within which Our Lord Himself is the supreme Teacher, the Church could not do otherwise. Fenton

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #129 on: August 24, 2017, 01:45:59 PM »
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    Mgr. Fenton’s credentials as a theologian are irreproachable. He was a Doctor of Sacred Theology and a Bachelor of Canon Law; he was professor of theology in several seminaries and at the Catholic University of America; he was editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review; and he was Secretary of the Catholic Theology Society of America, member of the Pontifical Roman Theological Academy, and Adviser to the Sacred Congregation for Seminaries and Universities. Nor could any reader of his excellent book The Catholic Church and Salvation in the Light of Recent Pronouncements by the Holy See deny that the various accolades he has thus received from the Church were well merited. John Daly

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #130 on: August 24, 2017, 02:12:08 PM »
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  • I take it, then, LoT, that you agree with Fenton's assessment that V2 represents an improvement in the area of Catholic ecclesiology.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #131 on: August 24, 2017, 02:13:56 PM »
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    Disagreeable as the task may seem to some individuals, the Catholic Church has to face the facts. Basic among those facts is the truth that, apart from the redemption which is in Jesus Christ, all men would inevitably have been excluded for all eternity from the possession of the Beatific Vision, in which alone the ultimate and eternal end and happiness of man may be attained. Another fact is that the punishment for unforgiven mortal sin (sin which the guilty party has not repented) is the everlasting penalty of hell, a penalty which includes both the poena damni and poena sensus. Still another fact is that the forgiveness of sin and the infusion of the life of grace is available by the power of Christ only "within" His kingdom, His Mystical Body, which, in this period of the New Testament, is the visible Catholic Church. Such, in the final analysis, is this teaching of the first section of our citation from the Cantate Domino. Fenton

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #132 on: August 24, 2017, 02:30:15 PM »
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  • (insert Library of Congress here; it accentuates the sink marvellouslly and puts a huge horkin' cherry on top of LoL's "Conciliar Kitchen Kaboodle"
    I take it, then, LoT, that you agree with Fenton's assessment that V2 represents an improvement in the area of Catholic ecclesiology.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #133 on: August 25, 2017, 05:09:22 AM »
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    Once again, at this point it is absolutely imperative to remember that being "within" the Church is not exactly the same as being a member of this social unit. A man is a member of the Church when he is baptized, and when he has neither publicly renounced his baptismal profession of the true faith nor withdrawn from the fellowship of the Church, and when he has not been expelled from the company of the disciples by having received the fullness of excommunication. But a man is "within" the Church to the extent that he can be saved "within" it when he is a member or even when he sincerely, albeit perhaps only implicitly, desires to enter it. The condition requisite for profiting from the reception of the sacraments or from the performance of acts which should be salutary is being "within" the Church. Fenton

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Can one be Justified and not be in a state of Sanctifying Grace?
    « Reply #134 on: August 25, 2017, 09:08:25 AM »
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    2. Is it required by a necessity of means or of precept to believe explicitly in the mysteries of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation after the promulgation of the gospel? 

    The first opinion and more common and held as more probable teaches belief is by necessity of means; Sanch. in Dec. lib. 2. c. 2. n. 8. Valent. 2. 2. d. 1. qu. 2. p. 4. Molina 1. part. qu. 1. a. 1 d. 2. Cont. Tourn. de praeceptis Decal. cap. 1. art. 1. §. 2. concl. 1. Juven. t. 6. diss. 4. a. 3. Antoine de virt. theol. cap. 1. qu. 2. Wigandt tr. 7. ex. 2. de fide n. 22. Concina t. 1. diss. 1. de fide cap. 8. n. 7. cuм Ledesma, Serra, Prado, etc. Also Salm. tr. 21. c. 2. punct. 2. n. 15. Cuniliat. tr. 4. de 1. Dec. praec. c. 1. §. 2. et Ronc. tr. 6. c. 2. But the last three say that in rare cases it may happen that one can be justified by implicit faith only…

    But the second opinion that is also sufficiently probable says by necessity of precept all must explicitly believe in the mysteries. However, for necessity of means it is sufficient to implicitly believe in the mysteries. So Dominicus Soto (in 4. sentent. t. 1. d. 5. qu. un. art. 2. concl. 2.) where he says: Even though the precept of explicit faith (in the Trinity and Incarnation) absolutely obliges the whole world, yet there also are many who are invincibly ignorant [of the mysteries] from which the obligation excuses. Franciscus Sylvius (t. 3. in 2. 2. qu. 2. art. 7. and 8. concl. 6.) writes: After the promulgation of the gospel explicit faith in the Incarnation is necessary for all for salvation by a necessity of precept, and also (that it is probable) a necessity of means…

    Card. Gotti (Theol. t. 2. tr. 9. qu. 2. d. 4. §. 1. n. 2.) says: In my judgment the opinion which denies that explicit faith in Christ and in the Trinity is so necessary that no one can be justified without it is very probable. And he adds that Scotus holds this opinion…

    Elbel. (t. 1. conferent. 1. n. 17.) writes today that this opinion is held by notables. DD. Castropal. part. 2. tr. 4. d. 1. p. 9. Viva in Prop. 64 damn. ab Innocent. XI. n. 10, Sporer. tr. 11. cap. 11. sect. 11. §. 4. n. 9. Laym. lib. 2. tr. 1. cap. 8. n. 5. who teach this is not less probable than the first, with Richard. Medin. Vega, Sa, and Turriano. Card. de Lugo, de fide d. 12. n. 91. calls the first speculatively probable, but defends this second view at length and in absolute terms as more probable, with Javell, Zumel, and Suarez d. 12. sect. 4. n. 10. the writings of Lugo likewise seem to be the opinion of St. Thomas 3. part. qu. 69. a. 4. ad 2. where the Doctor says: Before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit. Wherefore, argues Lugo, just as Cornelius freely obtained grace by implicit faith, so even one can obtain the same in a place where the gospel is not perfectly promulgated. He will be able in such a place to obtain the same who is invincibly ignorant of the mysteries in a place where the gospel has not been sufficiently promulgated. They say it is repugnant to the divine goodness and providence to damn invincibly ignorant adults who live uprightly in accordance with the light of nature whereas Acts 10:35 says, “But in every nation he that feareth him and worketh justice is acceptable to him.”

    They respond that even though all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers’ testimonies oppose this opinion, their opinion is more easily explained by necessity of precept, or because ordinarily almost none are saved without explicit faith in the mysteries, because after the promulgation of the gospel almost no one labors out of invincible ignorance. Or that, says Lugo, they can be explained by implicit faith or explained by desire… Source: Liguori, St. Alphonsus. An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers. Dublin, 1846. 

    So as I have said all along the issue has not been definitively settled.  It is more probable that explicit faith is necessary for all four as I have maintained and as I have stated publicly several times.  The above from the Sainted Doctor summarizes the teaching of the Church on BOD as the Church understands it.  Suprema Haec was as clear as possible on all things definitive without settling that which is not settled yet (though it, like Aquinas and Saint Paul only mentioned the first two beliefs and Fenton in 1958 with all the teachings from all the authorized teachers at his hand confirmed it had not be settled). Again BOD itself is not under question at all.  Catholics believe what Trent taught in regards to BOD (despite having as its main purpose defending the necessity of the Sacrament against Luther).  The Church is infallible and taught desire for the sacrament can be sufficient even under the historical circuмstances they were fighting against.  Those who formulated (basing it on the Scriptures and Aquinas) the teaching of Trent understand EENS as the Church does which is how Bellarmine, Alphonsus, Pius IX and Pius XII understood it, explained and taught it.  It is absolutely necessary for all those aware of its necessity and I would say, for those who can be reasonably expected to be aware of its necessity.  It is not absolutely necessary for those for those above the age of reason who cannot be reasonably expected  to be aware of its necessity in the eyes of God i.e. when it is impossible.  This is readily acceptable to Catholics of good will.

    We do not pretend to know who is culpably ignorant or not.  We do not pretend to know who has a supernatural faith or not, or who has perfect charity or perfect contrition or not.  We simply accept what the Church has infallibly taught never insisting on what the Church has not insisted on (authoritatively bound or defined).  Non-members can be saved within the Church.  We do not pretend to claim it is common for this to happen.  It must be rather uncommon as members themselves have difficultly despite having the infallible disciplines that guide us on the right path and the infallible truths that keep us there, at least intellectually, and the sacraments themselves which keep us in the state of sanctifying grace that non-members do not benefit from.  The treasury of the Saints and the help from the Mother of God to those who acknowledge her, the grace received by merely attending the Mass and praying in union with the Church.

    The infallible teaching of the BOD doctrine neither prevents Catholics from being baptized or joining the Church obviously, nor prevents potential converts from joining her as the teaching is that those who are inculpably ignorant of her necessity can hope to be saved so long as all the other requisites are present at the moment of death.  BOD shows the reasonableness of Church teaching. Many would be less likely to join her if she taught God damns invincibly ignorant adults who live uprightly in accordance with the light of nature.  THAT, the idea that a Just and Merciful God would damn a person not culpable for mortal sin or for anything they are not culpable of is what could prevent some people from joining her.  

    Who in the world is not aware of the gospel?  Who in the world is not aware of the Catholic Church?  Who in the world avoids even looking at the Catholic Church's claims for reasons that are inculpable?  

    Where do I claim that no one is aware of the gospel, or that no one is aware of the Catholic Church or that all who avoid looking into the Church they are aware of do so through no fault of their own? Looking at the Feeneyite blatherings you would be sure I do it.  Looking at my posts themselves one would find that not only can such a claim not be supported but it is made in bad will simply to undermine one who presents a Church teaching they do not want to accept.

    It is not for us to come up with a number.  Catholics see the undeniable truth, it is possible for a non-member to be saved within the Church plain and simple, and Catholics accept it.  

    Accepting the truth that non-members can be saved within the Church, and we are never afraid of the truth, even in a world that been duped by universal salvationism, is not the same as saying "no one needs baptism".  The accusation itself is both insulting and dishonest.  It is a tactic of the bad willed feeneyite.  The Catholic Church insists that all who wish to join her must be baptized for salvation to be possible; and all who intend to join her intend to be baptized.  This is one of those "duh" statements the Feeneyites imply or even out-rightly accuse us of not believing as they desperately try to undermine the truth. 

    It is a pity we have to respond to these insane accusations for the sake of the good-willed legitimately confused on this controversial (in large part because of the feeneyites) subject.      

    For the non-Catholics or the ignorant attached to this heresy we have come to understand how for those with faith, no proof is necessary, and for those without faith and those who reject a part of it, no proof will suffice, in regards to those attached to the feeneyite heresy with a prideful bad will.  Such people cannot hope for salvation while in this state.  But at the very least and for the sake of their own souls if they would like to start on the road to salvation they can at least cease their bellowing that the infallible "de fide" Catholic doctrine of BOD is "erroneous" so that at the very least their niche in Hell will not be quite as low. 

    Those attached to this heresy through no fault of their own i.e. those who have looked into the issue and have been 100% objective, :confused: and still deny the infallibly taught BOD doctrine through no fault of their own can hope that they will not be damned for their inculpable ignorance and that God will not judge them with the ruler they use in judging others in the state of ignorance and will reward their good will, supernatural faith (they have not rejected any part of the faith, we are charitably supposing, but are inculpably ignorant of a part of it remember, despite seeing everything posted on BOD from authoritative sources :confused:) and perfect charity with eternal life.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church