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Author Topic: C of E encourages trans-clerics  (Read 4940 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2018, 05:04:43 PM »
but even he says that one can be saved outside the Church, if through no fault of their own they have had no opportunity to enter it.

How did you manage to read that and write the very opposite of his position?

It's evident that he writes of one who is not known publicly to have been received into the Church, but is describing the receiving of an extraordinary grace of conversion, not publicly known. 

Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2018, 05:11:09 PM »
How did you manage to read that and write the very opposite of his position?

It's evident that he writes of one who is not known publicly to have been received into the Church, but is describing the receiving of an extraordinary grace of conversion, not publicly known.  
Yes, but to us, this person is outside the Church. He says they die united  "to the soul of the Catholic Church" Hence, they were never part of the Body. In any case, I disagree with Fr. Muller.


Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2018, 07:00:26 PM »
Well, at least you are giving yourself away.  

Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2018, 07:11:05 PM »
Well, at least you are giving yourself away.  
Giving myself away? Do elaborate.

Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2018, 09:23:51 PM »
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/
"Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.
Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.
Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
A. Eternal damnation."

So Muller certainly takes a more hardline view than Garrigou/Fenton( and myself) but even he says that one can be saved outside the Church, if through no fault of their own they have had no opportunity to enter it. The key difference between Muller and Brownson is that Muller is a priest/theologian, and a respectable scholar. He doesn't need to be vitriolic to get his point across
Oh no. You're a disciple of steven speray? Ween yourself away from his "kool-aid", man, and you might find yourself back in the Catholic Religion one day--soon I hope.