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Author Topic: C of E encourages trans-clerics  (Read 4945 times)

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Offline Banezian

Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2018, 04:26:40 PM »
Quote from: trad123 on May 28, 2018, 04:23:10 PM
Orestes Brownson

Brownson's Quarterly Review, 1873

https://books.google.com/books?id=aHBBAAAAYAAJ&

Pgs. 482 - 483




http://www.papalencyclicals.net/greg16/g16summo.htm

Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages, Pope Gregory XVI - 1832

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange and the theologians who posited otherwise, erred
That is one view. The view of Fr. Lagrange and Mgsr. Fenton is just as valid. Brownson wasn't even a theologian 
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Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 04:32:48 PM »
Quote from: Banezian on May 28, 2018, 04:26:40 PM
That is one view. The view of Fr. Lagrange and Mgsr. Fenton is just as valid.

The views are opposed; I think you mean permitted to be held.

When this crisis is over, I can see the latter view being condemned. The battle being fought pertains to ecclesiology, and I long for the day it is sorted out.
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Offline Banezian

Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2018, 04:39:27 PM »
Quote from: trad123 on May 28, 2018, 04:32:48 PM
The views are opposed; I think you mean permitted to be held.

When this crisis is over, I can see the latter view being condemned. The battle being fought pertains to ecclesiology, and I long for the day it is sorted out.
Permitted yes. The sort of sectarianism promoted by people like Brownson lacks depth. As I said, Brownson is not a theologian and it shows. You'd do better to quote Fr. Michael Muller.( he takes a similar view, but even he argues that Protestants can be saved in ignorance )
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Offline trad123

  • Supporter
Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2018, 04:44:08 PM »
Quote from: Banezian on May 28, 2018, 04:39:27 PM
You'd do better to quote Fr. Michael Muller.( he takes a similar view, but even he argues that Protestants can be saved in ignorance )

You have a citation for that?
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Offline Banezian

Re: C of E encourages trans-clerics
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2018, 04:54:47 PM »
Quote from: trad123 on May 28, 2018, 04:44:08 PM
You have a citation for that?
https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/fr-michael-muller-c-s-s-r-taught-the-doctrine-of-baptism-of-desire/
"Q. What are we to think of the salvation of those who are out of the pale of the Church without any fault of theirs, and who never had any opportunity of knowing better?
A. Their inculpable ignorance will not save them; but if they fear God and live up to their conscience, God, in His infinite mercy, will furnish them with the necessary means of salvation, even so as to send, if needed, an angel to instruct them in the Catholic faith, rather than let them perish through inculpable ignorance.
Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.
Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.
Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.
Q. What, then, awaits all those who are out of the Catholic Church, and die without having received such an extraordinary grace at the hour of death?
A. Eternal damnation."

So Muller certainly takes a more hardline view than Garrigou/Fenton( and myself) but even he says that one can be saved outside the Church, if through no fault of their own they have had no opportunity to enter it. The key difference between Muller and Brownson is that Muller is a priest/theologian, and a respectable scholar. He doesn't need to be vitriolic to get his point across
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