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Author Topic: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance  (Read 8026 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2022, 02:33:53 PM »
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  • Too bad he rejects the baptism part of Pope Gregory's teaching.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2022, 02:45:30 PM »
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  • Great.  That's a step in the right direction.  He does stop a bit short of affirming, however, that he believes in that position, or believes that the "Rewarder God" theory is unacceptable and untenable.  But not a few Traditional Catholics hold that you're basically a "Feeneyite heretic" if you say that infidels, Jews, pagans, etc. cannot be saved.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2022, 02:48:28 PM »
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  • Too bad he rejects the baptism part of Pope Gregory's teaching.

    See, here's another thing about Baptism.  It is certainly heretical to claim that someone can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, and unfortunately a great many anti-BoDers say, think, and hold exactly that.

    In debates I've had in the past with BoDers, I've exhorted them to at least re-articulate their support for BoD in such a way as not to deny the necessity of the SACRAMENT for salvation.  "Hey, if you're going to believe in BoD, at least say that they must receive the Sacrament in voto rather than say that they don't need to receive the Sacrament or that they can be saved without the Sacrament."  But the ones I asked to reconsider refused to do so.

    St. Robert Bellarmine, for instance, never said that anyone could be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, only that they could receive the Sacrament in voto.  There's a HUGE difference there that is lost on most of the BoD advocates.  This formulation preserves the necessity of the Sacrament for salvation, while the vast majority deny it ... and are therefore heretical.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2022, 02:53:07 PM »
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  • This was before your time here, Servus, but there was a poster here, Xavier Nishant, who (before he was banned for other reasons) eventually came around and started to hold that those who are justified by desire would at least be somehow baptized before they died.  He came to accept the teaching of St. Augustine on the matter, holding that there's nothing that would prevent God from sending an angel to confer the Sacrament on someone who was in a state of justification and nearing the moment of death.  That's actually what St. Cyprian believed was taking place during Baptism of Blood.  He referred to it as the Sacrament and said that the angels pronounced the words during the martyrdom.

    What is this nonsense that God's Providence can be thwarted by "impossibility" or "unforeseen" death?  St. Augustine, after he rejected BoD, that those who "wish to be Catholic" must reject this thinking, that God's Providence could thwart Him from getting the Sacrament to His elect.

    To claim that God can be prevented by "impossibility" is in fact clearly heretical.  "With God all things are possible." right?  To say otherwise is to deny His omnipotence.  So the only conclusion is that God wills for some to be saved by BoD instead of actual reception of the Sacrament.  So why would He do that exactly?  In fact, we have some stories of the saints where the saint raised a deceased person back to life to confer the Sacrament.  In one case, there was a woman who was a devout practicing Catholic ... or so it was thought.  She went to Holy Communion every day, regular Confession, etc.  According to St. Thomas, the reception of Holy Communion would have put her in a state of grace.  But she died before the saint could get there.  He raised her back to life and started hearing her Confession.  Then he abruptly stopped, and asked for water.  It was revealed to him that she had not been baptized.  So he baptized her and she died.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #5 on: November 06, 2022, 03:01:50 PM »
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  • People who believe in BoD really need to read this --
    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/miraculous-baptisms/

    There are many stories here, but the one I was referring to (St. Peter Claver) --
    Quote
    “When Father Claver arrived at her deathbed, Augustina lay cold to the touch, her body already being prepared for burial.  He prayed at her bedside for one hour, when suddenly the woman sat up, vomited a pool of blood, and declared upon being questioned by those in attendance: ‘I have come from journeying along a long road.  After I had gone a long way down it, I met a white man of great beauty who stood before me and said: Stop!  You can go no further.’… On hearing this, Father Claver cleared the room and prepared to hear her Confession, thinking she was in need of absolution for some sin she may have forgotten.  But in the course of the ritual, St. Peter Claver was inspired to realize that she had never been baptized.  He cut short her confession and declined to give her absolution, calling instead for water with which to baptize her.  Augustina’s master insisted that she could not possibly need baptism since she had been in his employ for twenty years and had never failed to go to Mass, Confession, and Communion all that time.  Nevertheless, Father Claver insisted on baptizing her, after which Augustina died again joyfully and peacefully in the presence of the whole family.”

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #6 on: November 06, 2022, 03:34:36 PM »
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  • I wonder if he's begun taking MHFM's materials more honestly after the Cassman debate
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #7 on: November 06, 2022, 03:37:31 PM »
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  • I don't understand why this is described as breaking news. Had Mario previously expressed that belief in the Incarnation was not necessary for salvation?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #8 on: November 06, 2022, 03:57:36 PM »
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  • I don't understand why this is described as breaking news. Had Mario previously expressed that belief in the Incarnation was not necessary for salvation?
    He's been pretty vocal about BOD and labeling those who defend the true teaching on EENS as "Feeneyites"
    https://novusordowatch.org/2018/11/contra-crawford-baptism-of-desire-blood/
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #9 on: November 06, 2022, 04:12:06 PM »
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  • He's been pretty vocal about BOD and labeling those who defend the true teaching on EENS as "Feeneyites"
    https://novusordowatch.org/2018/11/contra-crawford-baptism-of-desire-blood/
    .
    Is that post supposed to be proof of it? Or the book? I've read the book, the authors never once argue or even suggest that salvation can be had without faith in the Incarnation. And I don't see anything in his post suggesting he thinks salvation can be had without faith in the Incarnation.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #10 on: November 06, 2022, 04:13:54 PM »
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  • Perhaps the key word is "explicit"?


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #11 on: November 06, 2022, 09:48:31 PM »
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  • I don't understand why this is described as breaking news. Had Mario previously expressed that belief in the Incarnation was not necessary for salvation?
    It's not breaking news.  He has articulated this same position for years.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #12 on: November 06, 2022, 10:18:29 PM »
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  • I'm confused by the CMRI's position.  They clearly don't think that explicit faith in the incarnation is necessary for salvation but they don't seem to have any problem at all with those who do think that explicit faith in the incarnation is necessary.  Also, while they clearly believe that BOD can save a non-Catholic, they don't refuse the sacraments to those who think the Sacrament of Baptism (Water) is a necessity of means for salvation (Fr Feeney's position).  So does that mean that they think Fr Feeney's position is acceptable?  The primary difference between Fr Feeney and people who affirm that explicit faith is necessary would be that the Sacrament is likewise necessary (which is clearly stated in the Council of Trent).  So maybe the CMRI doesn't have a problem with people who are taking Trent literally?  I don't know.  I personally think MHFM is correct on this issue.  They quote multiple popes who affirm infallibly that justification cannot be separated from the Sacrament and the basis for the opposing view can only be two words from Trent ("or desire") which can reasonably be read to mean that both the Sacrament and desire are necessary.  Theologians, no matter how highly esteemed, cannot outrank the popes on matters of faith and morals.  And interpreting dogma is not allowed.  We are bound by the literal meaning of dogmas, not by the interpretations of theologians.  I know that sometimes the word interpretation is sometimes loosely defined to mean any explanation of the terms, but when the interpretation/explanation ends up contradicting the obvious literal meaning of the dogma, we have a problem.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #13 on: November 07, 2022, 01:50:56 AM »
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  • I don't understand why this is described as breaking news. Had Mario previously expressed that belief in the Incarnation was not necessary for salvation?
    I've never heard him say he doesn't bieve that and he links to introibo's blog which calls people who reject invincible ignorance feeneyites and reposts Sanborn's guys who accept invincible ignorance.

    I've searched his site for invincible ignorance and not once has he denounced it but he did say in one article that it wouldn't apply to a certain case, implying it could otherwise.

    Offline Ferdi

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    Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
    « Reply #14 on: November 07, 2022, 05:02:00 AM »
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  • I'm confused by the CMRI's position.  They clearly don't think that explicit faith in the incarnation is necessary for salvation but they don't seem to have any problem at all with those who do think that explicit faith in the incarnation is necessary.  Also, while they clearly believe that BOD can save a non-Catholic, they don't refuse the sacraments to those who think the Sacrament of Baptism (Water) is a necessity of means for salvation (Fr Feeney's position).  So does that mean that they think Fr Feeney's position is acceptable?  The primary difference between Fr Feeney and people who affirm that explicit faith is necessary would be that the Sacrament is likewise necessary (which is clearly stated in the Council of Trent).  So maybe the CMRI doesn't have a problem with people who are taking Trent literally?  I don't know.  I personally think MHFM is correct on this issue.  They quote multiple popes who affirm infallibly that justification cannot be separated from the Sacrament and the basis for the opposing view can only be two words from Trent ("or desire") which can reasonably be read to mean that both the Sacrament and desire are necessary.  Theologians, no matter how highly esteemed, cannot outrank the popes on matters of faith and morals.  And interpreting dogma is not allowed.  We are bound by the literal meaning of dogmas, not by the interpretations of theologians.  I know that sometimes the word interpretation is sometimes loosely defined to mean any explanation of the terms, but when the interpretation/explanation ends up contradicting the obvious literal meaning of the dogma, we have a problem.
    I have heard these and similar things from the Dimonds as well.
    But considering that after the Council of Trent the Pope established a seperate congregation specifically tasked with interpreting the council's decrees, the idea that interpreting a dogma is not allowed must be wrong.
    In actuality, language works in a way so that it must always be interpreted. And everyone interprets to a degree whenever he hears words or sentences. Only through interpretation they convey any meaning to him.
    So the question is not whether intepretation is allowed or not but rather to whom is given authority to interpret.
    And I think that authority belongs to those theologians who were tasked with it; not the Dimonds.