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Author Topic: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance  (Read 26411 times)

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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2022, 11:12:40 AM »
Intuition doesn't seem like the right rule by which to judge.
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A better question is: if the Church intends conciliar decrees to only ever have a strict literal sense ('the way the words read once and for all', as it is often affectionately put), why then, when given the opportunity to explain how she must be understood (the Vatican I passage you quoted), does she not say so?
If we are not bound by the literal meaning of dogmas, traditionalists don't have a leg to stand on.  John XXIII approved of the theologians who reinterpreted tradition and if we are permitted to interpret dogmas, then what problem do we have with J23 to begin with?  Also, interpreting tradition (dogma), falsifies Paul's admonition ("if we or an angel...").  The Catholic faith would be reduced to whatever the pope approves of.  And Vatican I's statements concerning interpretation are themselves superfluous.  Which is exactly what you have in the Novus Ordo sect.

Interpretation can also have the meaning of applying doctrinal decrees/canons to the disciplinary laws/policies of the Church.  That kind of interpretation doesn't give any new meaning to the original decrees/canons.  And a call for interpretation is not itself an infallible statement.

Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2022, 11:26:02 AM »
Let me rephrase: Vatican I does not say that the plain/literal meaning of a given conciliar decree is in fact the correct or complete meaning of a given conciliar decree.
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It simply says that whatever meaning the Church declares is the meaning to be retained.
It would be ridiculous to define something in such a way that it needed to be interpreted.  The pope can rewrite the statement in such a way that the literal meaning of the statement would be the correct meaning BEFORE promulgation.  What would be the purpose of defining a dogma that would need to be explained by theologians and not simply understood by the target audience (bishops and priests).


Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2022, 11:28:09 AM »
If we are not bound by the literal meaning of dogmas, traditionalists don't have a leg to stand on.  John XXIII approved of the theologians who reinterpreted tradition and if we are permitted to interpret dogmas, then what problem do we have with J23 to begin with?  Also, interpreting tradition (dogma), falsifies Paul's admonition ("if we or an angel...").  The Catholic faith would be reduced to whatever the pope approves of.  And Vatican I's statements concerning interpretation are themselves superfluous.  Which is exactly what you have in the Novus Ordo sect.
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I must not catch your meaning. If the literal or plain meaning of a given conciliar entry is the exclusively true and complete meaning, then is it not exactly the case that the faith is reduced to whatever a pope approves of?
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Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2022, 11:31:17 AM »
It would not mean that the Church could not revisit defined dogmas, after all, the dogma EENS was declared 3 times. Each time the meaning was the same as it was "once declared," i.e. declared the first time.
The meaning was not the exact same with each declaration.  HOWEVER, the later declarations NEVER contradicted the original declaration.  They later declarations simply added more specific explanation of the meaning.  But in the case of EENS, we are told by some theologians that the true intended meaning is the contradiction of the literal meaning of the original declarations.  That cannot be.

Re: Breaking: NOW (M. Derksen) Rejects Invincible Ignorance
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2022, 11:43:11 AM »
The quote says: that meaning of the dogma must be maintained which has once been declared. Can you tell me where the meaning of the dogma has been declared? It cannot be in the dogma itself.

Your accusations against me in your first paragraph are also baseless. Pope Sixtus established a congregation for the interpretation and execution of the Council of Trent. You can read that here: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13136a.htm

If interpretation was not necessary, this congregation would have been useless.

The entire field of theology would also be useless. Because if we simply need all the dogmas, we could just make a list of them and give that to every catholic. Instead we have theology manuals, explaining the meaning of articles of faith etc. All of that would be useless if the dogmas needed no interpretation.
Theology manuals are not interpretations (or at least shouldn't be), they are meant to be explanations of terms.  A dogmatic statement doesn't normally have the definition of theological terms contained within them.  So in order to understand dogmas (not interpret!), we need to know the definitions of the terms and any other theological background information that gives context to what meaning is intended by these terms.  And sometimes this includes information on the theological meaning of certain phrases and grammar, etc.  That is not interpretation.