Quote from: Ladislaus

Answer this, then, Ambrose.  You have all dodged this question repeatedly, so I'll try again.

 Let's say I changed my mind and accepted that there is BoD, but I say that this BoD applies only to catechumens, only those who have consciously accepted the Catholic Church based on the motives of credibility.

Would you still consider me a "Feeneyite heretic"?

I would simply call you "wrong," which is what you've consistently been on this topic. Baptism of Desire applies perhaps least of all to consciously professing catechumens who, being in near proximity to the Church and thoroughly instructed by Her, are in an ideal position to request and receive an expedited baptism if they should suddenly fall into any danger; and who, if they have deferred their baptism, are most likely to have done so from sinful and impure motives. I see no reason why God would be more likely to grant a special dispensation of grace to precisely that person who, having every reasonable opportunity of getting baptized and knowing full well of its necessity, would slothfully defer it in favor of earthly enjoyments—just because he signaled his so-called desire for baptism by "consciously accepting the Catholic Church"—than He would be to grant it to a virtuous pagan who was living by the lights of the natural law and who had never heard of baptism through no fault of his own. In this case the catechumen's desire for baptism is no real desire at all. However, if said catechumen was persevering in good faith and desiring to do all that was required of him for salvation, including submitting to sacramental baptism, and yet the fruition of his desire still somehow managed to elude him, then of course baptism of desire would provide him with the grace of the sacrament, but not the sacrament of grace. I will not wager much that the preceding scenario has a high likelihood of occurring, but it is still a permanent possibility and an inevitability of thought, and therefore must be mooted in order to round out the "technicalities" surrounding questions of sacramental baptism. The Church has done this for us: She has consistently taught that in the case of adult catechumens, the good-faith desire for baptism suffices for sanctifying grace. The upshot here is that, "To whom much is given, much shall be required." An unbaptized virtuous pagan will fare better with God on the Day of Judgment than an unbaptized catechumen, if the latter remained unbaptized through his own negligence.

Regarding the question of whether baptism of desire can be predicated of virtuous pagans at all, I will simply quote an obscure little Jesuit scribe by the name of Fr. Leonard Feeney, of whom some of you are fond.

Quote from: Fr. Leonard Feeney

Oh, God is very versatile, I know, and on those who have not yet heard of the covenant that has been set up by Christ between the water we see and use, and the living water that imparts to our souls the adoption of a divine childhood, God will be able to bestow the fruits of redemption in other and special ways. But the honest, simple, clear, affirmative way of the sacrament is the best way, the way of God’s own institution and choice, which we are free to reject, at our peril.

Water at Work

It seems that even Fr. Feeney, in his saner moods, was not a Feeneyite. A simpler description of Baptism of Desire can not be found, and we "BoD-ers" have been defending nothing more than the above statement, which also happens to be the undeniable teaching of Holy Mother Church.

You, on the other hand, have repeatedly wrenched reason and doctrine quite off their moorings in the defense of your nonsensical idee fixe. You have nothing in support of your position but the selective misinterpretation of texts, the libelous misconstrual of what others here have said to you, and the vicious calumnies leveled against their character. Will you have the good taste now to depart from this field of battle, or will you continue on in your madness?

I don't expect you to apologize and go away. Just going away will be sufficient.

Now shut up, Ladislaus. You and your compatriot Bowler can go start your own forum somewhere if you want to talk about this anymore. I'm sure it will garner all the attention it deserves.

I also believe in BoD for certain people who are inculpably ignorant about the Catholic Church but who follow the natural law and the graces God gave to them. These can be saved, no matter where in the world they are, or when they lived, or whatever religious or cultural beliefs are practiced in their vicinity.

...
Bp. George Hay (1729-1811):

The Casuist: A Collection of Cases in Moral and Pastoral Theology (Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, 1906).

Catholic Christianity and Modern Unbelief (Imprimatur, 1884).

Quote from: bowler

BODers on CI never confront the implications of their "evidence", the details. In order to believe what they believe one has to interpret ALL the clear direct revelations of God (dogmas), NOT as they are written  (see CI thread "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written"). One has to interpret each and every one NOT as they are written, one by one. But they don't see that

The BODers, if they were honest and sincere, would say that they believe in a strict BOD of the catechumen, and Baptism of Blood of the Martyr, of those people who explicitly desire to be Catholics. These are two innocuous theories that have the support of St. Thomas of Aquinas and other Saints that came after them.

BUT NO, the BODers go on to believe AND TEACH others that anyone can be saved in any religion even if they have no explicit desire to be Catholics, nor belief in Christ (this is called implicit faith in Christ, implicit because they believe in a God that rewards). ]THIS is the proof that they are LIARS AND OF BAD WILL!  For not only do they teach others to interpret ALL the dogmas not as they are written, but they go on to  teach something which no Father, Doctor, Saint, or Council has ever taught! In other words they are telling others to disregard ALL the dogmas, Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Councils, the Catechism of Trent and all catechisms prior to the 20th century, disregard all of that, for whatever they can find that teaches what THEY DESIRE, a 20th century catechism, a quote from a Non- Father, Saint, Doctor theologian, whatever.