Quote from: Scheeben, Concil, III, 232

"[The Liberal] measures divine and Catholic faith with the standard of human faith; he regards it, consequently, as an act of free trust and sovereign approbation whereby one accepts and makes his own a truth that is seen to be sufficiently attested. The testimony of another appears to him as authority only insofar as he allows himself freely to be influenced and moved by it; but it is not authority in the sense that the testimony, as an imperious, absolutely binding judgment, necessitates him to an obedient acceptance of its content. According to, this theory, faith, insofar as it is referred formally to the word of God as to its source, is not an act of obedience and submissive homage, but the simple acknowledgment that God has spoken the truth."

Notice how SJB tries to change the subject of this thread by posting distractions and never once directly addressing the CLEAR subject of this thread.

Quote from: bowler

There are no BODers here on CI with the capacity to answer questions like these. This is why they only write insults,  ad-hominem attacks, end runs to avoid details, and long copy and paste articles that they themselves can't answer any questions about. Once they are asked questions, they instantly revert to back to the same avoidance techniques.

Watch and see how not one has answered anything put forth here, except with their avoidance techniques.

Good night and God Bless.

Quote from: bowler

Quote

BODers on CI never confront the implications of their "evidence", the details. In order to believe what they believe one has to interpret all the clear direct revelations of God (dogmas), NOT as they are written (see CI thread "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written"). One has to interpret each and every one NOT as they are written, one by one. But you don't see that. They never answer any inconsistencies, they just keep quiet about it, or do end runs to avoid any discussion.

Here's an example:

1)

Quote

BODer Fr. Laisney, Is Feeneyism Catholic?, p. 9: “Baptism of Desire is not a sacrament; it does not have the exterior sign required in the sacraments. The theologians … call it ‘baptism’ only because it produces the grace of baptism, the new birth… yet it does not produce the sacramental character.”

Baptism of desire is not a sacrament, all the BODers agree on this.

Trent says that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. It also says that not all are necessary for every individual, therefore, at least one is necessary for salvation, that one sacrament can only be the sacrament of baptism (the the gateway to the spiritual life- Florence) , since that's exactly what the two Trent Canons on the sacrament of baptism say.

Yet BODers say that a person can be saved without any sacraments at all.

Quote

COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1563)
Canons on the Sacraments in General (Canon 4):

“If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justiflcation; let him be anathema.”

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.”

 


2) The BODers teach that baptism of desire does not remit the full liability of the punishment, nor imprint the character of the sacrament of baptism. They sight St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri for this teaching:

Quote

“Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God through contrition or through the love of God above all things, with the explicit desire, or implicit desire of the true river of baptism whose place it supplies (iuxta Trid. Sess. 14, c. 4) with respect to the remission of the guilt, but not with respect to the character to be imprinted, nor with respect to the full liability of the punishment to be removed[/b....(St. Alphonsus, Moral Theology, Volume V, Book 6, n. 96)

Yet, the Councils of Florence and Trent teach that the sacrament of baptism, to be born again, (John 3:5 "unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, enter into the kingdom of heaven")
remits  the full liability of the punishment. a person that is born again goes straight to heaven. Yet baptism of desire is not a sacrament nor does it send one straight to heaven. So baptism of desire is not being born again.

Trent and Florence clearly teach John 3:5 literally " unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, enter into the kingdom of heaven. The BODer says that a person who is not born again can enter heaven!

Quote

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life… The effect of this sacrament is the remission of every sin, original and actual, also of every punishment which is due to the sin itself. Therefore, no satisfaction must be enjoined for past sins upon those who immediately attain to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God.”


Council of Trent,  Decree on Original Sin  Sess. 5, Original Sin, # 5, : “If any one denies, that, by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is conferred in baptism, the guilt of original sin is remitted; or even asserts that the whole of that which has the true and proper nature of sin is not taken away; but says that it is only erased, or not imputed; let him be anathema. FOR, IN THOSE WHO ARE BORN AGAIN, there is nothing that God hates; because, there is no condemnation to those who are truly buried together with Christ by baptism into death; who walk not according to the flesh, but, putting off the old man, and putting on the new who is created according to God, are made innocent, immaculate, pure, guiltless, and beloved of God, heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ; so that there is nothing whatever to retard their entrance into heaven.”

Quote from: bowler

Above are the details on just two of dozens of contradictions BODers on CI can't answer:

1) BODers say that a person can be saved without any sacraments at all.

2) The BODer says that a person can be justified without being born again, and moreover that a justified person does not go straight to heaven.

Can you both not have a debate on BOD without resorting to insults?  Or is Cathinfo a place to practice keyboard martial arts? You are both traditional Catholics.
 :alcohol:

You guys reject the errors and heresies of Vatican II while yourselves holding THE VERY SAME ERRORS AND HERESIES.  If your views are not heretical, then you are schismatic for separating yourself from Vatican II (which teaches the SAME thing that you yourselves hold).

So, LoT, SJB, and Ambrose, et al. you are NOT CATHOLICS.  You are either schismatics of heretics or both.

they have no right to make accusations of heresy

The heresy that members of false religions can still be saved through invincible ignorance?.

 :jumping2: