Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa, Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:
   "I answer that, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.
   "Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: 'I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.' "

Quote from: St. Alphonsus Liguori

Moral Theology - (Bk. 6):
   "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De  P r e s b y t e r o  Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

Why are you quoting from saints when there are numerous dogmatic decrees which disagree with them?

I believe that "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

Nothing but a presumption in a pastoral context wherein the Church keeps open the possibility of their salvation.  There's never any guarantee that anyone buried (you leave out the context) has been saved.  There's merely a presumption regarding the possibility of their salvation.  Conversely, there's a presumption against the possibility of salvation for ѕυιcιdєs (or at least there was before the Novus Ordo), but that didn't preclude absolutely the possibility that they could be saved.  This provision in Canon Law does not constitute doctrine, but implies nothing more than a toleration of the opinion by the Church.  In the past the Church has FORBIDDEN the Christian burial of unbaptized catechumens.  Perhaps, as Karl Rahner stated, it's because the Church has grown increasingly "optimistic" about their changes for salvation.

If you want to believe that catechumens who died without Baptism could be saved, I have no problem with you.  Carry on.  But don't tell me that non-Catholics can be saved.

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: sword of the Spirit

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

I believe that "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

Since the grace of baptism (rebirth/regeneration) does not occur in BoD, I am up in the air on this now.

The logical fallacy employed here is a "Red Herring" , distracting the discussion through a false premise (i.e. "Since the grace of baptism (rebirth/regeneration) does not occur in BoD") followed by a boastful lack of conformity to Church teaching.

REMOVED

First and foremost, I would not subject myself to watching the propaganda espoused by this fraudulent organization - they have no authority whatsoever to supply their poisoned conjecture to Catholic discourse.

Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
   "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
   "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

Quote from: The Council of Trent

Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
   "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
   "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

One of the many problems BODers have is, neglecting to acknowledge that Trent is teaching about the sacraments, not some desire for them.

As far as Canon 4 is concerned, BODers cling to that canon as if it is teaching about the sacrament of baptism - where do they get that from? - it plainly says the sacraments are necessary for salvation, but not all are necessary for every individual. BODers take it upon themselves to use this canon to contradict Trent by saying the sacrament of baptism is not necessary - and per Canon 4, anathematize as they say it.    

Not sure why they want to go out of their way to anathematize themselves, but I've given up trying to figure that one out.

My feelings on this is:  Everyone who is in the State of Grace when they pass over are saved.   PERIOD!

Who are YOU to say who is and who is Not in the State of Grace, ever!  Are you God?

Your feeling is theologically sound.  Anyone who dies in the state of grace is saved.  Sanctifying grace can only be obtained within the Church.  Some who lack one or more of the following:

1.  Sacramental Baptism

2.  Profession of the Faith (one can have the Faith without professing it)

3.  Submission (or at least the will to submit to) legitimate ecclesiastical authority

Can obtain sanctifying grace within the Church if they have a supernatural Faith and perfect charity which would mean they first need perfect contrition if guilty of mortal sin.

Supernatural Faith is based upon God revealing and cannot just be a logical conclusion otherwise it is just a natural faith.  Perfect charity is the love of God above all things and the willingness to do His will regardless of the obstacles this would pose.  Perfect contrition is sincere sorrow for sin (with the intent not to commit that sin again) which is the result of the love of God.

All who die in state of sanctifying grace are saved and non-members of the Church can die in this state.  

By member I am speaking of the visible members who are sacramentally baptized, profess the faith and submit to legitimate ecclesiastical authority, a non-member lacks one or more of the above but can still be saved within the Church by desire partaking of her inner bonds of unity which is sanctifying grace, Faith, Hope, Charity, the gifts and fruits of the Holy Ghost.  They are within the Church though not technically as actual visible members (though when they die they are members of the Church Suffering or Triumphant).  

Baptism of Desire is infallibly taught which means those not sacramentally baptized i.e. non-members can be saved within the Church.  

No one is saved outside of the Church and there is no exception to this Dogma.

No one is saved who does not have a supernatural Faith and perfect Charity.  There are no exceptions to these necessities either.  

Contrarily no one is damned who dies in a state of sanctifying grace.  There is no exception to this as well.  And no one in a state of sanctifying grace dies outside the Church. There is no exception to this either.

It should not be so complicated to state and understand but the Feeneyites have made it so.  

My feelings on this is:  Everyone who is in the State of Grace when they pass over are saved.   PERIOD!

Who are YOU to say who is and who is Not in the State of Grace, ever!  Are you God?

Whoever has not received the sacrament of baptism cannot be in the state of grace. Who are YOU to say an infidel went to heaven - are you God?

My feelings on this is:  Everyone who is in the State of Grace when they pass over are saved.   PERIOD!

Who are YOU to say who is and who is Not in the State of Grace, ever!  Are you God?

 

This completely dodges the issue under consideration.  Question is whether anyone in the new dispensation can enter into a state of grace without the Sacrament of Baptism.  This is nothing more than begging the question, assuming that it's possible for someone to be in a state of grace without the Sacrament of Baptism.

In the Old Law, of course, this was not true.  St. Joseph, while having died in a state of grace, could not enter heaven.  Why?

So this is just a nonsensical non-argument, a circular argument in which you use the assumption that someone can be in a state of grace without Baptism to prove that someone can be saved without Baptism.  You are doing nothing but formulating a tautology.

Something which LoH also does not seem capable of comprehending, having called this reasoning "sound".