Author Topic: BOD - the antecedent of Vatican II (Read 11486 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #60 on:** August 27, 2013, 01:57:03 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Ladislaus
SBJ, I really don't care about your citations; I'm interested in your applying the principles to the question at hand. I would guess that we won't find pre Vatican II citations showing how Vatican II proceeds from pre-Vatican II EENS theology / ecclesiology.

That's because it doesn't exist. IF you would just show the REAL Catholic teaching and explanation, maybe we'd see the "link" you claim exists.

I've already laid out and demonstrated in detail the logical progression from one to the other. Please read my explanation a few posts back and tell me where I'm wrong. You explain to me the ontological mechanism behind not having the faith and yet having the faith. What's the distinction? Formal vs. Material? You tell me. That's the way I read it.

Cathedra · « **Reply #61 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:00:07 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Additionally, the Novus Ordo's loaded terminology with words like "dignity" make it appear as though any judgment of conscience deserves to be followed simply because it comes from our "most secret core and sanctuary." That makes regular people think that we don't necessarily have to refrain from action or work to choose a safer or more probable course.

The modern writers may say that we have to inform our conscience through Scripture, Church teaching, and theology. But then they usually add something like the following, from that same source: "The goal of forming conscience is to commit one's freedom to what is right and good so that...one identifies with what one does. The moral decision becomes a commitment of the self to value."

I guess that's true enough, but the rhetoric with its imprecisions, emotional appeal, and "poetic" vocabulary is aimed at confusing and subverting the genuine Catholic thinking that understands just how serious and complex it is to make judgments of conscience.

Yesterday i heard a novus ordo "catholic" philosopher saying that to sin is to "become empty", and since you become empty, you want more and more and more and you are never satisfied because of the emptiness.

Nothing about sin being an offense to God and a violation of His Law creating debt and punishment, mind you.

Cathedra · « **Reply #62 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:02:26 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

And that's another thing; I find the term "invincible" ignorance abhorrent.

Invincible to whom? To God?

If there's a good-willed pagan dying in the jungle somewhere, what's to stop God from sending a revelation regarding the Holy Trinity and Incarnation to this person and allowing him to make the assent of supernatural faith to these truths revealed to him?

Absolutely nothing. There's no such thing as invincible ignorance.

That scenario of course would depend upon explicit Baptism of Desire, but we're not discussing that here. Yet, even with that, there's absolutely nothing to stop God from transporting someone to this person to baptize him. That's reportedly what happened with Mary of Agreda, and there are similar stories about it happening to other saints as well.

I call bovine excrement on the notion of invincible ignorance and impossibility.

Why did Pius IX used that term then?

I don't like it either, because nothing is impossible to God, but i would be careful about what i say about it.

SJB · « **Reply #63 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:06:13 PM »

Quote from: Cathedra

Quote from: Ladislaus
And that's another thing; I find the term "invincible" ignorance abhorrent.

Invincible to whom? To God?

If there's a good-willed pagan dying in the jungle somewhere, what's to stop God from sending a revelation regarding the Holy Trinity and Incarnation to this person and allowing him to make the assent of supernatural faith to these truths revealed to him?

Absolutely nothing. There's no such thing as invincible ignorance.

That scenario of course would depend upon explicit Baptism of Desire, but we're not discussing that here. Yet, even with that, there's absolutely nothing to stop God from transporting someone to this person to baptize him. That's reportedly what happened with Mary of Agreda, and there are similar stories about it happening to other saints as well.

I call bovine excrement on the notion of invincible ignorance and impossibility.

Why did Pius IX used that term then?

I don't like it either, because nothing is impossible to God, but i would be careful about what i say about it.

It's a traditional term found many places as I've shown before.

SJB · « **Reply #64 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:10:46 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

If there's a good-willed pagan dying in the jungle somewhere, what's to stop God from sending a revelation regarding the Holy Trinity and Incarnation to this person and allowing him to make the assent of supernatural faith to these truths revealed to him?

Absolutely nothing. There's no such thing as invincible ignorance.

We covered this before. The infant-raised-in-the-woods-out-in-Patagonia is specifically answered by St. Thomas. If such a one truly strives to serve God by obedience to the natural law, God will send an angel, a missionary, or His own direct inspiration to enlighten him in the truths of the Faith necessary to salvation; thus coming to the knowledge of the truth. "God wills that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4).

Ladislaus · « **Reply #65 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:19:17 PM »

Quote from: Cathedra

Quote from: Ladislaus
And that's another thing; I find the term "invincible" ignorance abhorrent.

Invincible to whom? To God?

If there's a good-willed pagan dying in the jungle somewhere, what's to stop God from sending a revelation regarding the Holy Trinity and Incarnation to this person and allowing him to make the assent of supernatural faith to these truths revealed to him?

Absolutely nothing. There's no such thing as invincible ignorance.

That scenario of course would depend upon explicit Baptism of Desire, but we're not discussing that here. Yet, even with that, there's absolutely nothing to stop God from transporting someone to this person to baptize him. That's reportedly what happened with Mary of Agreda, and there are similar stories about it happening to other saints as well.

I call bovine excrement on the notion of invincible ignorance and impossibility.

Why did Pius IX used that term then?

I don't like it either, because nothing is impossible to God, but i would be careful about what i say about it.

Pius IX used it because the term was in vogue at the time. "Traditional" is too strong a word for it.

Cathedra · « **Reply #66 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:19:42 PM »

Quote from: SJB

We covered this before. The infant-raised-in-the-woods-out-in-Patagonia is specifically answered by St. Thomas. If such a one truly strives to serve God by obedience to the natural law, God will send an angel, a missionary, or His own direct inspiration to enlighten him in the truths of the Faith necessary to salvation; thus coming to the knowledge of the truth. "God wills that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4).

Would you say then this is exactly what Pope Pius IX was talking about in QCM but perhaps only implicitly and not getting into too much detail? Do you believe he was just echoing St. Thomas or was there something new being said?

SJB · « **Reply #67 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:26:58 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Pius IX used it because the term was in vogue at the time.

Really? Where did you learn this?

Cathedra · « **Reply #68 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:29:55 PM »

SJB, what would you say about this one then:

"Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control".

Is that even an accurate translation from the original?

SJB · « **Reply #69 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:35:07 PM »

Quote from: Cathedra

Quote from: SJB
We covered this before. The infant-raised-in-the-woods-out-in-Patagonia is specifically answered by St. Thomas. If such a one truly strives to serve God by obedience to the natural law, God will send an angel, a missionary, or His own direct inspiration to enlighten him in the truths of the Faith necessary to salvation; thus coming to the knowledge of the truth. "God wills that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4).

Would you say then this is exactly what Pope Pius IX was talking about in QCM but perhaps only implicitly and not getting into too much detail? Do you believe he was just echoing St. Thomas or was there something new being said?

Yes. The point is that without supernatural Faith one cannot be saved, not that ignorance of any sort can or can't save, which is a nonsense. If we follow St. Thomas, what we are saying is that a man who hasn't the Faith, whether he is guilty for that or not, cannot be saved. This is de fide. If he is innocent, God will send him further graces so that he may be enlightened and brought to salvation, which is all that Ven. Pius IX is saying. He is merely cutting off accusations of injustice or "unfairness" against God, having just laid down that there isn't any salvation outside the Church. In other words, "Don't worry about the invincibly ignorant - they won't be left to die in that state. If they are truly innocent they will be brought to salvation by God's light and grace." That is, by His Light - which means, by being granted the light of true Faith. None of this was controversial when everybody followed St. Thomas, but between the liberals and the "Feeneyites", it has all gotten tangled up.

As for whether we know about individual cases or not, that is not really relevant, although some try to make it so. The point is to establish which PRINCIPLES govern the question of salvation. Individual cases will then fall within or without those parameters.

While I agree that we do not know with absolute certitude the disposition of another's soul, we can know with moral certitude. We must avoid the trap of saying that because we do not have absolute or metaphysical certitude we do not have certitude. Or because there are cases we cannot know about, that we can never know about any cases at all.

SJB · « **Reply #70 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:38:08 PM »

Quote from: Cathedra

SJB, what would you say about this one then:

"Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control".

Is that even an accurate translation from the original?

One cannot remain outside. The dogma is very clear on this.

Cathedra · « **Reply #71 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:40:48 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Cathedra
SJB, what would you say about this one then:

"Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control".

Is that even an accurate translation from the original?

One cannot remain outside. The dogma is very clear on this.

Of course, but this says those outside can hope for life or salvation if they are excused by I.I.

Is that not saying, "well, if you're outside the Church because of I.I., then you have SOME hope to be saved if you die like that".

SJB · « **Reply #72 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:47:59 PM »

Quote

ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX

AUGUST 10, 1863

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]

9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.

[4] Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.
[5] Mt 15.17.
[6] Lk 10.16.
[7] Mk 16.16.
[8] Jn 3.18.
[9] Lk 11.23.
[10] Ti 3.11.
[11] 2 Pt 2.1.

Cathedra · « **Reply #73 on:** August 27, 2013, 02:55:51 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote
ON PROMOTION OF FALSE DOCTRINES
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX

AUGUST 10, 1863

7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

8. Also well known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom "the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior."[4] The words of Christ are clear enough: "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;"[5] "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;"[6] "He who does not believe will be condemned;"[7] "He who does not believe is already condemned;"[8] "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."[9] The Apostle Paul says that such persons are "perverted and self-condemned;"[10] the Prince of the Apostles calls them "false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction."[11]

9. God forbid that the children of the Catholic Church should even in any way be unfriendly to those who are not at all united to us by the same bonds of faith and love. On the contrary, let them be eager always to attend to their needs with all the kind services of Christian charity, whether they are poor or sick or suffering any other kind of visitation. First of all, let them rescue them from the darkness of the errors into which they have unhappily fallen and strive to guide them back to Catholic truth and to their most loving Mother who is ever holding out her maternal arms to receive them lovingly back into her fold. Thus, firmly founded in faith, hope, and charity and fruitful in every good work, they will gain eternal salvation.

[4] Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.
[5] Mt 15.17.
[6] Lk 10.16.
[7] Mk 16.16.
[8] Jn 3.18.
[9] Lk 11.23.
[10] Ti 3.11.
[11] 2 Pt 2.1.

Yes, i have already read all this.

But this is QCM and the one i gave you is from Singulari Quidem or Quadam.

Do you believe Sanborn, Cekada, Dolan & co. use I.I. to save people by default? Or do you believe what they say on the matter is orthodox?

SJB · « **Reply #74 on:** August 27, 2013, 03:05:45 PM »

Quote from: Denzinger

Rationalism and Indifferentism*

[From the Allocution, "Singulari quadam," Dec. 9, 1854]

1645 You should inculcate this salutary lesson in the souls of those who exaggerate the strength of human reason to such an extent that they venture by its help to scrutinize and explain even mysteries, although nothing is more inept, nothing more foolish. Strive to withdraw them from such perversity of mind by explaining indisputably that nothing more excellent has been given by the providence of God to man than the authority of divine faith; that this is for us, as it were, a torch in the darkness, a guide which we follow to life; that this is absolutely necessary for salvation; for, "without faith . . . it is impossible to please God" [ Heb. 11:6] and "he that believeth not, shall be condemned"[Mark 16:16].

1646 Not without sorrow we have learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ [see n. 1717]. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition after death of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgments of God" which are 'a great deep" [ Ps. 35:7] and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive from the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with that skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.

1647 For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [ 1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [ Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.