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Author Topic: BOD Status Quaestionis  (Read 11056 times)

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BOD Status Quaestionis
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2013, 08:21:27 PM »
I agree, in fact St. Alphonsus held no one at all is saved without internal supernatural faith manifested in explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, i.e. in Our Lord Jesus Christ. Just like St. Thomas, who also said supernatural faith is such that one has explicit faith in the primary articles of faith and implicit faith in every other article, one must have the universal will to believe all that God has revealed and to do all that He has commanded to acquire the infused virtues of supernatural faith and charity. When QCM says men are saved by this efficacious virtue, it is speaking of the divine light of faith.

But St. Alphonsus also held that the other opinion was permissible. Msgr. Fenton teaches the same himself and that has really been the near universal theological consensus since the time of John of St. Thomas at least, who held that some persons who had never heard of Christ today could be saved in the same way the just of the Old Testament were saved, with explicit faith in God and implicit faith in Christ. Fr. Garrigou Lagrange also held that opinion.

The Holy Office Letter states.

Quote
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).


And many mistakenly take that to mean or to be an endorsement of the opinion that explicit faith in those two articles alone suffice for salvific supernatural faith. Some that it to mean that and accept and others take it to mean that and reject that. But the letter evidently doesn't say that.

Quote from: Msgr. Fenton
Our letter manifestly alludes to this necessity when it quotes, in support of its teaching on the necessity of supernatural faith in all those who are saved, the words of the Epistle to the Hebrews: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”[10]
 
Now most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation. It must be noted at this point that there is no hint of any intention on the part of the Holy Office, in citing this text from the Epistle to the Hebrews, to teach that explicit belief in the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and of the Incarnation is not required for the attainment of salvation. In the context of the letter, the Sacred Congregation quotes this verse precisely as a proof of its declaration that an implicit desire of the Church cannot produce its effect “unless a person has supernatural faith.”


BOD Status Quaestionis
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2013, 08:26:46 PM »
Quote from: bowler
Why bring the catechumen into the conversation? We are discussing "BOD of someone who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic", something that no Father, Doctor, Or Saint ever taught.


Something we can all agree on.


Offline Stubborn

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BOD Status Quaestionis
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2013, 05:02:25 AM »
Quote from: Nishant


The Holy Office Letter states.

Quote
But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).


And many mistakenly take that to mean or to be an endorsement of the opinion that explicit faith in those two articles alone suffice for salvific supernatural faith. Some that it to mean that and accept and others take it to mean that and reject that. But the letter evidently doesn't say that.



In regards to the Denzinger quote above from Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani's letter to Archbishop Cushing of Boston, called Protocol 122/49, Fr. Wathen states:

...."He says: "just any kind of vague desire" ("quodcuм que Votum") is insufficient to effect one's implicit membership in the Church. But an implicit desire is a quodcuмque votum!

He says this Votum must be informed by perfect charity. Perfect charity is the love of God primarily for His own sake. We are prompted to ask: How does one know when one possesses such charity? The [EENS] doctrine maintains that the evidence for it in one's soul is one's accepting the Faith and entering the Church. If one does not do this, it is vaporous speculation to suggest that one possesses it.

He says: "This implicit desire" ("Votum") will effect nothing, unless one has supernatural faith. We ask: How can one have supernatural faith in that of which one is invincibly ignorant? It is impossible.

............By the time the Cardinal has finished his commentary, any enquirer would be satisfied that he himself qualified for salvation, since he is an easy-going sort of fellow, who believes in Jesus Christ as much as other people, and doesn't ever harm his neighbor. He would gladly join the Catholic Church if he could see any need for it; but this official Catholic statement indicates that it is no urgent matter."


BOD Status Quaestionis
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2013, 06:35:27 AM »
Quote from: Alcuin
Quote from: bowler
Why bring the catechumen into the conversation? We are discussing "BOD of someone who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic", something that no Father, Doctor, Or Saint ever taught.


Something we can all agree on.


In my experience 99% of the believers in BOD believe  in the BOD that saves those who have no explicit desire to be Catholic, therefore, there is no point in discussing BOD of the catechumen which they only USE only as a smokescreen. I say, bring them out into the light, dislodge them from BOD of the catechumen!

Besides, I have never heard of any catechumen who died unbaptized in my family, or any other peoples families I have known my whole life. It is an insignificant theory affecting numerically speaking, no one, were it not used as a smoke screen, as a counterfeit lineage to some saints.

BOD Status Quaestionis
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2013, 06:46:21 AM »
Quote from: SJB

Here is a text considered "problematic" by some, from Tanqurey:

 


MY observations from years of debating BODers:

Ever notice that the BODers (99% of which really believe the BOD that saves those who have no explicit desire to be Catholic) are always quoting the same speculative theological texts from the late 1800's and 1900's? They appear to not be able to think logically for themselves by reading the dogmas directly, they think through the same theological texts. They seem to idolize theologians, while at the same time wishing to be theologians themselves. Like the nurse idolizes the doctors, or the stewardess the pilot. Like the patient who does anything the doctor recommends. The doctor is a God to them.