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Author Topic: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?  (Read 2101 times)

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Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
« on: October 02, 2022, 11:11:34 AM »
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  • Quote
    The Life of the Blessed Virgin Mary:

    In the afternoon, when her confessor again asked her for the names of the three holy kings, she answered, Mensor, the brown-faced one, after Christ's death received the name of Leander on his baptism by St. Thomas. Theokeno, the old, yellow-faced one, who was ill when Jesus visited Mensor's camp in Arabia, was baptized Leo by St. Thomas. The brown-skinned one, who was already dead when Jesus made His visit, was called Seir or Sair.' Her confessor asked her: How then was he baptized?' She answered smiling and without hesitation: He was already dead and had received the baptism of desire.' Her confessor then said: I have never heard these names in my life: how then did they get the names of Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar?' She replied: They were called this because it goes with their character, for these names mean: (1) He goes with love; (2) He wanders about, he approaches gently and with ingratiating manners: (3) He makes rapid decisions, he quickly directs his will to the will of God.' She said this with great friendliness, and expressed the meaning of the names by making pantomimic gestures with her hand on the bed-coverlet. It must remain for the language experts to decide how far these words can be made to bear these meanings.
    https://biblehub.com/library/emmerich/the_life_of_the_blessed_virgin_mary/xiii_the_journey_of_the.htm

    It isn't clear whether it was directly revealed to her that Sair received a baptism of desire or whether she made the inference herself.

    I would assume she wouldn't be speaking with such confidence if it wasn't revealed for she was usually shy and timid.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #1 on: October 02, 2022, 11:31:19 AM »
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  • The Mystical City of God by Venerable Mary of Agreda

    Volume IV


    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/agreda/vol4/vol4.shtml


    Chapter XIII

    THE BLESSED MARY SENDS THE CREED TO THE DISCIPLES AND OTHERS OF THE FAITHFUL; THEY WORK GREAT WONDERS WITH IT; THE APOSTLES RESOLVE TO PARTITION THE EARTH AMONG THEMSELVES; OTHER DOINGS OF THE GREAT QUEEN OF HEAVEN.




    Quote
    230. Saint Peter then continued:

    [. . .]

    “The servant of Christ, our dearest brother Thomas, will follow his Master preaching in India, in Persia and among the Parthians, Medes, Hircanians, Brahmans, Bactrians. He shall baptize the three Magi Kings and, as they shall be attracted by the rumor of his preaching and his miracles, he shall instruct them fully in all things according to their expectations.”

    [. . .]

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #2 on: October 02, 2022, 11:42:55 AM »
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  • https://biblehub.com/library/emmerich/the_life_of_the_blessed_virgin_mary/xiii_the_journey_of_the.htm

    It isn't clear whether it was directly revealed to her that Sair received a baptism of desire or whether she made the inference herself.

    I would assume she wouldn't be speaking with such confidence if it wasn't revealed for she was usually shy and timid.

    Meh, multiple questions.  If the one was dead before Our Lord visited (where?  presumably Limbo of the Fathers), Baptism had not been instituted yet.  What's the actual translation of "Baptism of Desire" here, as that term is a very recent one?  Emmerich's works were actually produced by Brentano, and there are many questions about how much were embellished by him.  There's also a question of the degree to which all this was "revealed" vs. the "visionary" injection her own perception of things into it.  There's a reason the Church didn't canonize her ... most likely because the Church doesn't want to have the canonization taken as an endorsement of everything in these books.  There are some direct contradictions between Emmerich and Agreda, and even a few others.  trad123 pointed one out on this very question where Mary of Agreda says that all three were baptized.  I personally suspect that neither is correct, since if I had to guess, at least 2 of the 3 were already deceased before Our Lord rose from the dead.  33 years had passed since their visit to Bethlehem, and my guess is that they were on the older side when they visited (as I doubt that you'd have a bunch of 20-somethings who would be classified as Magi).

    There's also a curiosity in Emmerich about Our Lord visiting one of these in Arabia ... and there's no Tradition of Our Lord ever having gone there, whether before His Death or after His Resurrection.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #3 on: October 03, 2022, 10:51:22 AM »
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  • Meh, multiple questions.  If the one was dead before Our Lord visited (where?  presumably Limbo of the Fathers), Baptism had not been instituted yet.  What's the actual translation of "Baptism of Desire" here, as that term is a very recent one?  Emmerich's works were actually produced by Brentano, and there are many questions about how much were embellished by him.  There's also a question of the degree to which all this was "revealed" vs. the "visionary" injection her own perception of things into it.  There's a reason the Church didn't canonize her ... most likely because the Church doesn't want to have the canonization taken as an endorsement of everything in these books.  There are some direct contradictions between Emmerich and Agreda, and even a few others.  trad123 pointed one out on this very question where Mary of Agreda says that all three were baptized.  I personally suspect that neither is correct, since if I had to guess, at least 2 of the 3 were already deceased before Our Lord rose from the dead.  33 years had passed since their visit to Bethlehem, and my guess is that they were on the older side when they visited (as I doubt that you'd have a bunch of 20-somethings who would be classified as Magi).

    There's also a curiosity in Emmerich about Our Lord visiting one of these in Arabia ... and there's no Tradition of Our Lord ever having gone there, whether before His Death or after His Resurrection.
    Honestly... I find the book weird so far. It has already claimed that Christ was born on the 25th of November and the Annunciation on the 25th of February, both a month earlier than the Church celebrated. Furthermore, there's a weird statement that Christ was born 8 years prior to what we count from and that the first four years of Christ's life were completely forgotten. What does that even mean?

    What puzzles me is that her life was full of miracles and she had the stigmata and all, her visions didn't contradict anything in Scripture even though she never read it and yet I don't get it how the Church could get all of these things so wrong. I realize why the Church both didn't condemn and didn't canonize her but I somehow expect the books would be put on the Index if they were harmful but they must've gotten an imprimatur instead.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #4 on: October 03, 2022, 07:52:36 PM »
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  • Honestly... I find the book weird so far. It has already claimed that Christ was born on the 25th of November and the Annunciation on the 25th of February, both a month earlier than the Church celebrated. Furthermore, there's a weird statement that Christ was born 8 years prior to what we count from and that the first four years of Christ's life were completely forgotten. What does that even mean?

    What puzzles me is that her life was full of miracles and she had the stigmata and all, her visions didn't contradict anything in Scripture even though she never read it and yet I don't get it how the Church could get all of these things so wrong. I realize why the Church both didn't condemn and didn't canonize her but I somehow expect the books would be put on the Index if they were harmful but they must've gotten an imprimatur instead.

    Yes, I have little doubt about her personal holiness, but she was bed-ridden and could not write.  These books were produced by Clemens Brentano and not Katherine herself.  So, at the end of the day, who knows what percentage of it accurately reflects things the Katherine Emmerich saw and how much is Brentano's imagination and/or embellishment?  Was he interrogating her and possibly asking leading questions?  We'll probably never know in this life.  And, then, in between, one could be exceedingly holy and still be simply "mistaken" about having "seen" something that perhaps was the product of her own imagination.  Women especially are prone to more active or vivid imaginations.  St. Theresa of Avila, whenever some nun was reported to her as having visions, replied that the "visionary" should be given more meat in her diet.  So Emmerich's personal holiness did not make her immune from such mistakes, nor would such mistakes be incompatible with her personal sanctity.  And yet the Church has opted not to canonize her, and I would bet a lot that this has been primarily because the Church did not want to be seen as endorsing her books as if they were all authentic revelation, and thereby subject the Church to ridicule and mockery from her detractors as a result if some problems were later discovered with them.

    Mary of Agreda's works were initially condemned by (the majority decision of a) large panel of theologians.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #5 on: October 03, 2022, 08:03:56 PM »
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  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_Brentano
    Quote
    However, some posthumous investigations in 1923 and 1928 made it uncertain how much of the books he attributed to Emmerich were actually his own creation and the works were discarded for her beatification process.

    Recall that he was a poet and a novelist, so some embellishment is highly likely.

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #6 on: October 04, 2022, 06:41:32 AM »
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  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_Brentano
    Recall that he was a poet and a novelist, so some embellishment is highly likely.
    How unfortunate. The visions are so detailed and full of information, if it was 100% reliable it would be a treasure.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #7 on: October 04, 2022, 09:41:26 AM »
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  • How unfortunate. The visions are so detailed and full of information, if it was 100% reliable it would be a treasure.
    Ven. Maria de Agreda's Mystical City of God is more reliable, albeit still private revelation, I would go with her account over Emmerich. Although I still like Emmerich's books.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Online Tradman

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #8 on: October 04, 2022, 10:01:15 AM »
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  • The saints who recount the life of Christ, or of Mary, do not attempt to teach the intricacies of doctrine, but to assist meditation and appreciation for Our Lord's Passion.   Any scandal taken is contrived, and the purpose of that saint's writings is lost on people who miss the point.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #9 on: October 04, 2022, 06:59:09 PM »
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  • The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda is definitely trustworthy and has been approved by numerous Popes, saints and highly esteemed theologians for hundreds of years.  (My old copy has about 15 pages quoting a the numerous approbations over the years.)

    The same can not be necessarily be said of the revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich.  I person believe that she was a good and holy person.  The problem is the man who wrote and published her revelations was a protestant and surely embellished and changed things.  So, we don't have trustworthy writings for her.



    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #10 on: October 05, 2022, 10:38:26 PM »
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  • The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda is definitely trustworthy and has been approved by numerous Popes, saints and highly esteemed theologians for hundreds of years.  (My old copy has about 15 pages quoting a the numerous approbations over the years.)

    The same can not be necessarily be said of the revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich.  I person believe that she was a good and holy person.  The problem is the man who wrote and published her revelations was a protestant and surely embellished and changed things.  So, we don't have trustworthy writings for her.
    In the Mystical City of God, there is an account of Mother Mary encouraging Pope Peter to start administering the Sacraments. For a short time, there was an internal debate among the Apostles as to which Baptism to administer, the one of St. John the Baptist or of Our Lord.  St. Peter and the Apostles quickly conclude that it is to be the Water Baptism of Our Lord.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Xenophon

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #11 on: October 05, 2022, 10:53:58 PM »
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  • Ven. Maria de Agreda's Mystical City of God is more reliable, albeit still private revelation, I would go with her account over Emmerich. Although I still like Emmerich's books.
    There are def problems with her writing, it was condemned by Pope Urban VIII in 1625, the congregation of the inquisition in 1681 and Innocent XI forbid it from being read. Then the censure was confirmed after a more careful thirty-two session study of Croset's translation. Only thing going for it is that the decree of Innocent XI was suspended for whatever reason, but only in Spain. Any further requests to suspend the decree was ignored.

    Either way, the book is obviously suspect. If something getting that much censure and kicking up controversy amongst theologians isn't suspect then I don't know what is. The statements which the reports present on the Catholic Encyclopedia are pretty sketchy to say the least. I'm not sure I would call it safe by any means like how one may call "The Imitation of Christ" by Kempis safe.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01229a.htm
    “The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” Council of Florence, Session 6

    Offline ServusInutilisDomini

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #12 on: October 06, 2022, 10:48:14 AM »
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  • There are def problems with her writing, it was condemned by Pope Urban VIII in 1625, the congregation of the inquisition in 1681 and Innocent XI forbid it from being read. Then the censure was confirmed after a more careful thirty-two session study of Croset's translation. Only thing going for it is that the decree of Innocent XI was suspended for whatever reason, but only in Spain. Any further requests to suspend the decree was ignored.

    Either way, the book is obviously suspect. If something getting that much censure and kicking up controversy amongst theologians isn't suspect then I don't know what is. The statements which the reports present on the Catholic Encyclopedia are pretty sketchy to say the least. I'm not sure I would call it safe by any means like how one may call "The Imitation of Christ" by Kempis safe.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01229a.htm
    If I had known that I wouldn't have bought the book.

    Online Tradman

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #13 on: October 06, 2022, 11:29:44 AM »
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  • If I had known that I wouldn't have bought the book.
    If you read the whole CE article, you'll see that any censure given was not held universally or perpetually, although her work was continually contested, probably by demonic forces.  No censure was held in Spain, which suggests at least some censures were politically motivated. As shown prior in this thread, the saints like Agreda were not trying to provide doctrinally perfect content but to provide meditative assistance based on their own perspective. Blessed Mary Agreda provides a deeply detailed and passionate look at the life of Christ and Our Lady that serve to deepen love of the Holy Family.    

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: BoD revealed to Anne Catherine Emmerich?
    « Reply #14 on: October 06, 2022, 01:32:12 PM »
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  • If I had known that I wouldn't have bought the book.
    Don't be discouraged. It's well worth reading.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]