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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Baptism of Desire and Feeneyism => Topic started by: BumphreyHogart on March 14, 2017, 03:35:47 PM

Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 14, 2017, 03:35:47 PM
Can we here get a gradual tally of what each clergy member holds?
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: DirigeNos on March 14, 2017, 04:54:44 PM
I never understood why BoD was such a divisive topic among traditional Catholic clergy - to the extent of having the Feeneyites break away. There are many other dogmas that have been popular which protestants rejected throughout history. And yes, I group Feeneyites with the protestants because they can't reject any of the three types of Baptism and still call themselves Catholics. The council of Trent acknowledged the ability of baptism by desire.

If a person is seeking the Faith by all their natural and God given means, and is in a place (for example a third world country) where there are no priests, and their family is ignorant of the necessity of Baptism by water, and the person dies, can that person not make it to heaven? Are they saying that God's mercy cannot extend to the truly ignorant? Even more evident by Baptism of blood. Of course a true martyr can make it to heaven.

Now, perhaps it is a popular counter attack in response to the Lutheran: grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone. Thousands of protestants believe that the Catholic's "necessary outward signs" namely, the sacraments, are deplorable - that they should be forsaken because everyone is saved by Faith. This is easily refutable - scripture itself says that "sola scriptura" is false. The Bible does not claim to contain all that is necessary - tradition is the other pillar. From tradition, hence the sacraments, and the "works" portion - charity. Faith and works is required of every Catholic in order to get to heaven.

Now, if a person has Faith, and performs whatever works they can to seek out Baptism/ entrance into God's church, but does not receive the sacramental baptism through no fault of their own, they could make it to heaven. They are still not counted as members of the church, but their soul may be saved. I say "could" because we cannot ever say for sure that someone is damned. The exception would be those few in history whom God has revealed are in hell. Judas, for example. By action and desire, a person may deserve and receive grace from God enough to save them. Remember the suicide jumper who made it to purgatory because from the time he jumped until before he hit the water he asked God for forgiveness with a sincere contrition. Another example: the good thief... "this day thou shalt be with Me in paradise".
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 14, 2017, 05:17:37 PM
I think, ultimately, the question is, "Does any Resistance priest approve of doubting anything in the Baltimore Catechism?"
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: tdrev123 on March 14, 2017, 05:26:55 PM
Fr Gavin Bitzer has his confirmations done by Bp Williamson.  He is an ex-sspx priest and he denies BoD.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 14, 2017, 05:39:33 PM
Quote from: tdrev123
Fr Gavin Bitzer has his confirmations done by Bp Williamson.  He is an ex-sspx priest and he denies BoD.


Does Bp. Williamson, then, know that Fr. Bitzer thinks it's okay for the faithful to actually doubt anything in the Baltimore Catechism?
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Ladislaus on March 14, 2017, 05:46:29 PM
Father Joe Pfeiffer is a rabid Cushingite.

Who cares about the Baltmore Catechism anyway?  It was put out by the Americanists and is not Magisterial.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Maria Auxiliadora on March 14, 2017, 05:53:01 PM
Quote from: DirigeNos
I never understood why BoD was such a divisive topic among traditional Catholic clergy - to the extent of having the Feeneyites break away. There are many other dogmas that have been popular which protestants rejected throughout history. And yes, I group Feeneyites with the protestants because they can't reject any of the three types of Baptism and still call themselves Catholics.


You probably never heard this before:

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. (Eph 4:5).
or
I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. (Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed)

If you are serious about actually learning something on this question, take your post to the Baptism of Desire sub-forum to Crisis in the Church.  Suffice to say, the problem concerns what is dogma?  What is the nature of dogma?  If you do not know the right answer to this questions, you cannot know or defend the faith.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 14, 2017, 05:54:32 PM
I am not asking for arguments. I am simply asking for facts here.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Ladislaus on March 14, 2017, 06:19:08 PM
I believe that most of them are indeed Cushingites.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 14, 2017, 06:57:44 PM
I see the moderator of this site moved this to this sub-forum. But my question was not designed to ask for opinions. I only asked for facts about the stand of current Resistance clergy

As well, I notice that I was prevented from thumbing up a responder who was in favor of BoD!!  Why?
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: DirigeNos on March 14, 2017, 08:10:31 PM
Of the six or seven resistance priests I know, none of them have preached against BoD that I have ever heard. As for the question itself, I would recommend "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" Dr. Ludwig Ott, 1915/1954.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Motorede on March 14, 2017, 08:52:55 PM
Quote from: DirigeNos
Of the six or seven resistance priests I know, none of them have preached against BoD that I have ever heard. As for the question itself, I would recommend "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma" Dr. Ludwig Ott, 1915/1954.


It's curious that Dr. Ott states at the beginning of his section on Baptism: Since the promulgation of the Gospel water is absolutely necessary for salvation, and cites John 3:5 as proof. Classifies this as "De Fide".

Next he contradicts himself using "BoD" as a substitute for water if  impossible to get water. Classifies this as "Sententia Certa".

So much for the word "absolutely".
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: happenby on March 14, 2017, 09:11:01 PM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
I am not asking for arguments. I am simply asking for facts here.


You can't handle the facts.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 15, 2017, 08:00:19 AM
Quote from: happenby
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
I am not asking for arguments. I am simply asking for facts here.


You can't handle the facts.


The facts I am asking about in this thread is the position of the individual Resistance clergy. I will accept any facts on that.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Ladislaus on March 15, 2017, 12:16:01 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus
Father Joe Pfeiffer is a rabid Cushingite.

Who cares about the Baltmore Catechism anyway?  It was put out by the Americanists and is not Magisterial.


http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/feeneyism/three_baptisms.htm

[Disclaimer:  this article is complete garbage.]
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: MarylandTrad on March 15, 2017, 06:22:38 PM
Fr. Hector Bolduc, the first Southwest District Superior of the SSPX, believed EENS in the same sense as Fr. Feeney and was a friend of the St. Benedict Center. Fr. Bolduc was the priest who arranged for Archbishop Lefebvre to meet with Br. Francis M.I.C.M. in St. Mary’s in 1980 to talk about the dogma. Archbishop Lefebvre did not believe EENS in the same sense as Br. Francis, but neither did the Archbishop consider Br. Francis to be a heretic for believing that baptism is necessary for salvation. Archbishop Lefebvre personally gave Br. Francis Holy Communion after their meeting.

Fr. Bolduc's last sermon is available on YouTube. In the sermon Fr. Bolduc accuses those who deny the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation of committing "blasphemy against God." The whole sermon should be listened to, but he talks about EENS starting at the 3:10 mark.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/GqHxUp9Gp6Q[/youtube]
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: happenby on March 15, 2017, 06:48:48 PM
Quote from: MarylandTrad
Fr. Hector Bolduc, the first Southwest District Superior of the SSPX, believed EENS in the same sense as Fr. Feeney and was a friend of the St. Benedict Center. Fr. Bolduc was the priest who arranged for Archbishop Lefebvre to meet with Br. Francis M.I.C.M. in St. Mary’s in 1980 to talk about the dogma. Archbishop Lefebvre did not believe EENS in the same sense as Br. Francis, but neither did the Archbishop consider Br. Francis to be a heretic for believing that baptism is necessary for salvation. Archbishop Lefebvre personally gave Br. Francis Holy Communion after their meeting.

Fr. Bolduc's last sermon is available on YouTube. In the sermon Fr. Bolduc accuses those who deny the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation of committing "blasphemy against God." The whole sermon should be listened to, but he talks about EENS starting at the 3:10 mark.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/GqHxUp9Gp6Q[/youtube]



What is so precious about this sermon is not only the message, but the emotion with which this priest speaks, the angst that wells up in him over the concern for souls. Compare it to the sterile line-quoting of bod'ers who plaster the world with pretense of salvation outside the Church via bod. While promoting laxity and contradictory notions in defiance of defined doctrine, the bod crowd carries on like zombies destroying the missionary mandate of Christ.   :cry:
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 15, 2017, 06:51:21 PM
Quote from: happenby
Quote from: MarylandTrad
Fr. Hector Bolduc, the first Southwest District Superior of the SSPX, believed EENS in the same sense as Fr. Feeney and was a friend of the St. Benedict Center. Fr. Bolduc was the priest who arranged for Archbishop Lefebvre to meet with Br. Francis M.I.C.M. in St. Mary’s in 1980 to talk about the dogma. Archbishop Lefebvre did not believe EENS in the same sense as Br. Francis, but neither did the Archbishop consider Br. Francis to be a heretic for believing that baptism is necessary for salvation. Archbishop Lefebvre personally gave Br. Francis Holy Communion after their meeting.

Fr. Bolduc's last sermon is available on YouTube. In the sermon Fr. Bolduc accuses those who deny the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation of committing "blasphemy against God." The whole sermon should be listened to, but he talks about EENS starting at the 3:10 mark.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/GqHxUp9Gp6Q[/youtube]



What is so precious about this sermon is not only the message, but the emotion with which this priest speaks, the angst that wells up in him over the concern for souls. Compare it to the sterile line-quoting of bod'ers who plaster the world with pretense of salvation outside the Church via bod. While promoting laxity and contradictory notions in defiance of defined doctrine, the bod crowd carries on like zombies destroying the missionary mandate of Christ.   :cry:


Unfortunately, your power of discernment as a flat-earther makes what you say quite questionable.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: ManuelChavez on March 16, 2017, 12:00:12 AM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Quote from: happenby
Quote from: MarylandTrad
Fr. Hector Bolduc, the first Southwest District Superior of the SSPX, believed EENS in the same sense as Fr. Feeney and was a friend of the St. Benedict Center. Fr. Bolduc was the priest who arranged for Archbishop Lefebvre to meet with Br. Francis M.I.C.M. in St. Mary’s in 1980 to talk about the dogma. Archbishop Lefebvre did not believe EENS in the same sense as Br. Francis, but neither did the Archbishop consider Br. Francis to be a heretic for believing that baptism is necessary for salvation. Archbishop Lefebvre personally gave Br. Francis Holy Communion after their meeting.

Fr. Bolduc's last sermon is available on YouTube. In the sermon Fr. Bolduc accuses those who deny the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation of committing "blasphemy against God." The whole sermon should be listened to, but he talks about EENS starting at the 3:10 mark.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/GqHxUp9Gp6Q[/youtube]



What is so precious about this sermon is not only the message, but the emotion with which this priest speaks, the angst that wells up in him over the concern for souls. Compare it to the sterile line-quoting of bod'ers who plaster the world with pretense of salvation outside the Church via bod. While promoting laxity and contradictory notions in defiance of defined doctrine, the bod crowd carries on like zombies destroying the missionary mandate of Christ.   :cry:


Unfortunately, your power of discernment as a flat-earther makes what you say quite questionable.


His stance on the flat earth is a different matter entirely. It is not relevant to this particular topic, nor should his stance in this topic be called into question because of his stance in a completely separate topic.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Ladislaus on March 16, 2017, 08:03:17 AM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
Unfortunately, your power of discernment as a flat-earther makes what you say quite questionable.


 :sleep:
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 17, 2017, 05:16:16 PM
This thread should not have been moved from the Resistance section. This is not about discussions about BoD, but merely what the stand of each Resistance clergy is on it, for, or against.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Gregory I on March 17, 2017, 09:53:51 PM
Quote from: MarylandTrad
Fr. Hector Bolduc, the first Southwest District Superior of the SSPX, believed EENS in the same sense as Fr. Feeney and was a friend of the St. Benedict Center. Fr. Bolduc was the priest who arranged for Archbishop Lefebvre to meet with Br. Francis M.I.C.M. in St. Mary’s in 1980 to talk about the dogma. Archbishop Lefebvre did not believe EENS in the same sense as Br. Francis, but neither did the Archbishop consider Br. Francis to be a heretic for believing that baptism is necessary for salvation. Archbishop Lefebvre personally gave Br. Francis Holy Communion after their meeting.

Fr. Bolduc's last sermon is available on YouTube. In the sermon Fr. Bolduc accuses those who deny the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation of committing "blasphemy against God." The whole sermon should be listened to, but he talks about EENS starting at the 3:10 mark.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/GqHxUp9Gp6Q[/youtube]


That's the best homily I have ever heard.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Cantarella on March 17, 2017, 10:49:26 PM
Quote from: MarylandTrad
Fr. Hector Bolduc, the first Southwest District Superior of the SSPX, believed EENS in the same sense as Fr. Feeney and was a friend of the St. Benedict Center. Fr. Bolduc was the priest who arranged for Archbishop Lefebvre to meet with Br. Francis M.I.C.M. in St. Mary’s in 1980 to talk about the dogma. Archbishop Lefebvre did not believe EENS in the same sense as Br. Francis, but neither did the Archbishop consider Br. Francis to be a heretic for believing that baptism is necessary for salvation. Archbishop Lefebvre personally gave Br. Francis Holy Communion after their meeting.

Fr. Bolduc's last sermon is available on YouTube. In the sermon Fr. Bolduc accuses those who deny the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation of committing "blasphemy against God." The whole sermon should be listened to, but he talks about EENS starting at the 3:10 mark.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/GqHxUp9Gp6Q[/youtube]


Thank you!
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: BumphreyHogart on March 18, 2017, 11:09:35 AM
A sermon by deceased Fr. Bolduc who was not even an SSPX Resistor?  

C'mon! Talk about derailing a thread!
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: Gregory I on March 18, 2017, 11:48:52 PM
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
A sermon by deceased Fr. Bolduc who was not even an SSPX Resistor?  

C'mon! Talk about derailing a thread!


You know nothing of which you speak. This man is a pure lover of Jesus Christ and has zeal for the sheep. If you want to dismiss this you show only the supreme depths of your delusion and self-righteousness.
Title: BoD Position of SSPX Resistance clergy
Post by: happenby on March 19, 2017, 12:30:26 AM
Quote from: Gregory I
Quote from: BumphreyHogart
A sermon by deceased Fr. Bolduc who was not even an SSPX Resistor?  

C'mon! Talk about derailing a thread!


You know nothing of which you speak. This man is a pure lover of Jesus Christ and has zeal for the sheep. If you want to dismiss this you show only the supreme depths of your delusion and self-righteousness.


What place does love and zeal for the sheep have in the life of an obstinate bod'er?  C'mon.

 :smirk: