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Author Topic: BoD and justification  (Read 34659 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: BoD and justification
« Reply #210 on: September 16, 2023, 12:45:33 PM »
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  • Because Stubborn seems to think that the term is scandalous and should be banned when used in reference to BOD. Bishop Hay along with many other theologians obviously don’t agree.

    I could see banning the term due to the widespread abuse of it.  There are certain similar terms that have been butchered by the Conciliar Church even if they had legitimate use before V2 that some of us avoid because of the Conciliar abuse.  Similarly, we can't just tell people, "I'm a Christian," since the Prots have appropriated the term.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #211 on: September 16, 2023, 01:39:09 PM »
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  • Because Stubborn seems to think that the term is scandalous and should be banned when used in reference to BOD. Bishop Hay along with many other theologians obviously don’t agree.
    No QVD.
    Simply look at what happens 99% of the time that there is someone out there defending a BOD on CI, they offer the case of one "invincibly ignorant" who simply cannot be damned on account of his invincible ignorance, all the while using Pope Pius XII's teaching as proof that that is what the Church teaches - which is ridiculous and is why I posted that.

    Like all a BODers, you do not base your supposed belief on either Scripture or what the Church authoritatively and even dogmatically taught about the requirement for baptism because both Scripture and official papal teachings teach contrary to a BOD, regardless of whatever all other non-authoritative sources say.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline songbird

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #212 on: September 16, 2023, 04:44:08 PM »
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  • No Salvation Outside the Church is dogma.  Is BOD dogma?  If so, it is defined.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #213 on: September 17, 2023, 09:42:32 AM »
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  • I believe in this BOD as exemplified in this 3.5 minute Hollywood depiction (which is not of an actual BOD), but does exemplify the only way possible that BOD could occur...

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #214 on: September 17, 2023, 04:31:10 PM »
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  • I believe in this BOD as exemplified in this 3.5 minute Hollywood depiction (which is not of an actual BOD), but does exemplify the only way possible that BOD could occur...






    Probably the best movie scene ever filmed.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #215 on: September 17, 2023, 04:43:21 PM »
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  • No QVD.
    Simply look at what happens 99% of the time that there is someone out there defending a BOD on CI, they offer the case of one "invincibly ignorant" who simply cannot be damned on account of his invincible ignorance, all the while using Pope Pius XII's teaching as proof that that is what the Church teaches - which is ridiculous and is why I posted that.

    Like all a BODers, you do not base your supposed belief on either Scripture or what the Church authoritatively and even dogmatically taught about the requirement for baptism because both Scripture and official papal teachings teach contrary to a BOD, regardless of whatever all other non-authoritative sources say.


    Let me repeat it once more: NO theologian, pope, canonist, or saint, post Trent, taught EENS the way you interpret it, not a single one. Remember, they are quoting the same sources that you are using. Who should I believe, them or you?

    Bishop Hay, Saint Alphonsus, and Saint Robert Bellermine (all part of the Magisterium) all intrepret Session 6 Chapter 4 of Trent as proof of BOD. Who’s interpretation do you think I should side with, yours or theirs?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #216 on: September 17, 2023, 05:28:12 PM »
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  • Let me repeat it once more: NO theologian, pope, canonist, or saint, post Trent, taught EENS the way you interpret it, not a single one. Remember, they are quoting the same sources that you are using. Who should I believe, them or you?

    Bishop Hay, Saint Alphonsus, and Saint Robert Bellermine (all part of the Magisterium) all intrepret Session 6 Chapter 4 of Trent as proof of BOD. Who’s interpretation do you think I should side with, yours or theirs?
    There's no such thing as interpreting the Magisterium, and saints and bishops are not the Magisterium, the Magisterium is infallible.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #217 on: September 17, 2023, 05:39:45 PM »
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  • There's no such thing as interpreting the Magisterium, and saints and bishops are not the Magisterium, the Magisterium is infallible.

    Come on Marulus, get your definitions correct before debating.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #218 on: September 17, 2023, 09:32:41 PM »
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  • From today's martins.


    Quote
    Homily by Pope St. Gregory the Great.
    Bk. ii. Horn. 38, 9

    Dearly beloved brethren, ye have already entered, at the Lord's bidding, into the house where the marriagefeast is being held, that is to say, into the Holy Church, and look ye well to it, that when the King cometh in to see the guests, he see nothing amiss in your soul's wedding-garment. For indeed it is with great searchings of heart that we are behoven to consider that which so soon cometh. " And when the King came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding-garment." Dearly beloved brethren, what are we to think is signified by this wedding garment Is it baptism or is it faith? But without baptism, or without faith, who could be seated at the marriage-feast? He that believeth not would still be without the house. What then, except love, must we understand by the wedding-garment He who hath faith and is in the Holy Church, but hath not charity, cometh in unto the wedding indeed, but hath not a wedding-garment. And charity is well called the wedding -garment, for it is the garment wherewithal our Maker decked Himself when He came to wed the Church unto Himself.
    Quote
    It was the work of God's love alone that His Only - begotten Son should wed Himself unto the souls of the elect. Whence indeed John saith " God so loved the world, that He gave His Only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." iii. 16. He therefore Whom love brought among men, showeth that the same love is His wedding-garment. Each one therefore of you who is in the Church and believeth in God, hath already come in unto the marriage-feast, but if he keep not the grace of charity, he is come in thither not having a weddinggarment. In sooth, my brethren, if one be asked to an earthly marriage, he changeth his attire, to show even by his garments that he rejoiceth in the joy of the Bride and Bridegroom, and he would be ashamed to appear in unseemly raiment among the guests that are feasting and making merry. We are come unto God's marriagefeast, and we make pretence to change the vesture of our hearts. There is joy among the angels when the elect are taken to heaven. With what face shall we look upon this spiritual feast if we come in thither not having charity, the only wedding-garment wherein we can appear comely


    Online Stubborn

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #219 on: September 18, 2023, 04:49:49 AM »
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  • Let me repeat it once more: NO theologian, pope, canonist, or saint, post Trent, taught EENS the way you interpret it, not a single one. Remember, they are quoting the same sources that you are using. Who should I believe, them or you?

    Bishop Hay, Saint Alphonsus, and Saint Robert Bellermine (all part of the Magisterium) all intrepret Session 6 Chapter 4 of Trent as proof of BOD. Who’s interpretation do you think I should side with, yours or theirs?
    I am not interpreting anything, I am understanding the literal meaning of both Scripture and Trent. I mean Trent taught that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament as it is written in John 3:5. Those are essentially Trent's own words. Which is to say if I am wrong on this, it is because Trent was wrong on this.

    How do you "interpret" that?

    To this point you've interpreted it by saying saint x interpreted it contrary to what the infallible pope and council taught, and that this contrary interpretation is the right interpretation because of who interpreted it. And you say this just as if there is no contradiction whatsoever between the infallible teaching and saint x's interpretation.

    It was not until V2 that the ambiguity in all it's docuмents required interpretation just to make them make any sense at all, but prior to then the teachings of the Church were just as clear as Trent.

     We do not know why some saints and theologians felt the need to interpret clear teaching, but we presume that they did so in the name of a more profound understanding, which is in and of itself contrary to the clear teaching of V1 even if the intention is good.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #220 on: September 18, 2023, 05:05:03 AM »
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  • Come on Marulus, get your definitions correct before debating.
    1) Is the Council of Trent magisterial? 2) Does Trent have the final say or does it need to be interpreted?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #221 on: September 18, 2023, 05:26:15 AM »
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  • 1) Is the Council of Trent magisterial? 2) Does Trent have the final say or does it need to be interpreted?

    1) Of course it is, it’s infallible. 2) Yes it has the final say, but not *your* interpretation. There is not a single theologian, pope, saint, or canonist who interpreted Trent’s session 6 chapter 4 the way you would have it to mean.

    Do, you understand what I’m saying? We can’t take a primary source, like Trent, and put our own spin on it when it opposes the unanimous teaching of all those who have touched on the subject in question. Doing so is likely based on pride.

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #222 on: September 18, 2023, 06:15:04 AM »
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  • I am not interpreting anything, I am understanding the literal meaning of both Scripture and Trent. I mean Trent taught that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament as it is written in John 3:5. Those are essentially Trent's own words. Which is to say if I am wrong on this, it is because Trent was wrong on this.

    How do you "interpret" that?

    To this point you've interpreted it by saying saint x interpreted it contrary to what the infallible pope and council taught, and that this contrary interpretation is the right interpretation because of who interpreted it. And you say this just as if there is no contradiction whatsoever between the infallible teaching and saint x's interpretation.

    It was not until V2 that the ambiguity in all it's docuмents required interpretation just to make them make any sense at all, but prior to then the teachings of the Church were just as clear as Trent.

     We do not know why some saints and theologians felt the need to interpret clear teaching, but we presume that they did so in the name of a more profound understanding, which is in and of itself contrary to the clear teaching of V1 even if the intention is good.

    Nah, it can’t be that you’re wrong! Nope, you couldn’t have interpreted Trent incorrectly, no way. :facepalm:


    This way of thinking is usually how every heresy starts. Protestants say exactly the same thing with Holy Scripture. They claim to just be “understanding the literal meaning”. :facepalm:


    You wrote: “We do not know why some saints and theologians felt the need to interpret clear teaching, but we presume that they did so in the name of a more profound understanding, which is in and of itself contrary to the clear teaching of V1 even if the intention is good.”

    Do you want to know why they felt the need to interpret? Because they knew that people like you, Pax, and Ladislaus would come around. People who have too much self trust, too much confidence in themselves, and too much pride to accept someone else’s opinion over their own.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #223 on: September 18, 2023, 06:39:25 AM »
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  • Nah, it can’t be that you’re wrong! Nope, you couldn’t have interpreted Trent incorrectly, no way. :facepalm:


    This way of thinking is usually how every heresy starts. Protestants say exactly the same thing with Holy Scripture. They claim to just be “understanding the literal meaning”. :facepalm:


    You wrote: “We do not know why some saints and theologians felt the need to interpret clear teaching, but we presume that they did so in the name of a more profound understanding, which is in and of itself contrary to the clear teaching of V1 even if the intention is good.”

    Do you want to know why they felt the need to interpret? Because they knew that people like you, Pax, and Ladislaus would come around. People who have too much self trust, too much confidence in themselves, and too much pride to accept someone else’s opinion over their own.
    Except the Saints and theologians you rely on contradicted Trent on remission of guilt....

    Then you also have to deal with Pope Siricius.. and Pope Leo the Great...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #224 on: September 18, 2023, 06:52:31 AM »
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  • Nah, it can’t be that you’re wrong! Nope, you couldn’t have interpreted Trent incorrectly, no way. :facepalm:

    Of course we could be incorrect, but then so could St. Alphonsus ... yet another false dilemma fallacy.