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Author Topic: BoD and justification  (Read 34849 times)

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Offline In Principio

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Re: BoD and justification
« Reply #90 on: September 04, 2023, 03:06:29 PM »
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  • You are twisting and completely butchering the actual citation.  He referred to EACH AND EVERY ONE of them losing salvation, and not some of them.

    I referred to "everyone of them".

    Everyone of them that die may lose salvation if they are refused the sacrament.


    Incidently, "unusquisque" also translates to "anyone" and "any of them", as it's translated here:

    Quote
    St. Siricius, Pope, L. C. — "And as we proclaim that the sacred reverence due to Easter (as the time for public baptism) is nowise to be trenched upon, so is it our wish, that this help be granted, with all possible speed, in the case of infants, who are too young to speak, and also of those who are in some urgent need of the sacred waters of baptism: lest it tend to the ruin of our own souls, if from our refusing the saving font to those that seek it, any of them depart this life and lose the kingdom and (eternal) life. . . . Let it suffice that faults have hitherto been committed in this matter ; and now let the above-named rule be observed by all priests, who wish not to be rent from that solid apostolic rock, upon which Christ constituted the universal Church." — Galland. t vii. Ep. i. ad Himer. n. 3, p. 534.
    --- Kirk, Rev. John; Waterworth, Rev. J.; and Msgr. Capel, D.D. The Faith of Catholics (Vol.II).  2nd Ed. p.123. 1885





     "The faithful should obey the apostolic advice not to know more than is necessary, but to know in moderation." - Pope Clement XIII, In Dominico Agro (1761) 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #91 on: September 04, 2023, 05:38:34 PM »
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  • Lad:

    Can those who die in the state of grace be damned?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #92 on: September 04, 2023, 09:22:25 PM »
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  • The way I understand the unanimous teaching regarding BOD, post Trent, is in conformity with the teachings of both St. Alphonsus and St. Robert Bellarmine, among many others. It is also my understanding that BOD supplies the necessary graces of the actual Sacrament while not being the actual Sacrament itself.

    If I’m wrong about this, being a submissive child of the Church, I will gladly retract this belief. Now, in your charity, and although you hold the doctrine of BOD in contempt, can you please give me a reference from some pope, saint, or theologian that states that BOD is an actual Sacrament?

    St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church:

    "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church:

    De Sacramento Baptismi, cap. 6: “...among the ancients this proposition was not so certain at first as later on: that perfect conversion and repentance is rightly called the Baptism of Desire and supplies for Baptism of water, at least in case of necessity”....."it is certainly to be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when it is not from contempt but through necessity that persons die without Baptism of water.”

    Except you cannot really on the Saints for BoD because they contradicted Trent with regards to remission of temporary punishment. Those Saints say a BoD person goes to purgatory. This is a big problem if you hold their BoD. But if you BoD does remit guilt, then you don't believe what the Saints taught.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #93 on: September 04, 2023, 10:09:48 PM »
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  • Except you cannot really on the Saints for BoD because they contradicted Trent with regards to remission of temporary punishment. Those Saints say a BoD person goes to purgatory. This is a big problem if you hold their BoD. But if you BoD does remit guilt, then you don't believe what the Saints taught.
    I know you'd contradict St. Alphonsus but I am not so sure about the other saints. Pope Innocent III taught that BOD remits temporal punishment.
    Quote
    Pope Innocent III, to the Bishop of Metz, Aug. 28, 1206: “We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when he says to the Apostles: ‘Go, baptize all nations in the name etc.,” the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another...If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith.”

    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #94 on: September 05, 2023, 05:20:55 AM »
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  • Except you cannot really on the Saints for BoD because they contradicted Trent with regards to remission of temporary punishment. Those Saints say a BoD person goes to purgatory. This is a big problem if you hold their BoD. But if you BoD does remit guilt, then you don't believe what the Saints taught.

    How is it that all the Popes, saints, theologians, and canonists missed the contradiction, but you and Lad found it some 450 years later?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #95 on: September 05, 2023, 05:26:03 AM »
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  • How is it that all the Popes, saints, theologians, and canonists missed the contradiction, but you and Lad found it some 450 years later?
    I only know because others have pointed it out. Also the saints did not have access to the tool called the internet. Perhaps God allowed them to be blind to this? It certainly wouldn't have happened unless he permitted it.

    Also obviously no man is infallible, the saints have made mistakes before, this is just one of them. Human respect also blinds people. Perfect example is Augustinism.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #96 on: September 05, 2023, 05:51:03 AM »
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  • I only know because others have pointed it out. Also the saints did not have access to the tool called the internet. Perhaps God allowed them to be blind to this? It certainly wouldn't have happened unless he permitted it.

    Also obviously no man is infallible, the saints have made mistakes before, this is just one of them. Human respect also blinds people. Perfect example is Augustinism.
    That's right, when Trent says justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament as it is written in John 3:5, we are bound under pain of mortal sin to believe this, as such, we are obliged to disbelieve in a BOD no matter who else taught it. I mean, how is it possible to believe in both after Trent saying that?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #97 on: September 05, 2023, 06:11:15 AM »
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  • I only know because others have pointed it out. Also the saints did not have access to the tool called the internet. Perhaps God allowed them to be blind to this? It certainly wouldn't have happened unless he permitted it.

    Also obviously no man is infallible, the saints have made mistakes before, this is just one of them. Human respect also blinds people. Perfect example is Augustinism.

    Unlike every pope, saint, theologian, and canonist, your and your internet friend’s opinion carries absolutely no weight.


    obviously no man is infallible, the saints have made mistakes before

    Is it possible that you and a few others are the ones who have made a mistake?

    Human respect also blinds people. Perfect example is Augustinism.

    Pride is even more apt to blind the minds of people. Luther was a great example of that.


    I’ll place my bet on the side of every pope, saint, theologian, and canonist. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #98 on: September 05, 2023, 07:43:45 AM »
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  • Unlike every pope, saint, theologian, and canonist, your and your internet friend’s opinion carries absolutely no weight.


    obviously no man is infallible, the saints have made mistakes before

    Is it possible that you and a few others are the ones who have made a mistake?

    Human respect also blinds people. Perfect example is Augustinism.

    Pride is even more apt to blind the minds of people. Luther was a great example of that.


    I’ll place my bet on the side of every pope, saint, theologian, and canonist.
    Pope Siricius' statement is more than enough to disprove BoD.

    One infallible statement > any amount of popes, saints and theologians.

    You should place your bet on God's guarantee (infallibility) rather than the on opinions of men.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #99 on: September 05, 2023, 09:10:41 AM »
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  • Pope Siricius' statement is more than enough to disprove BoD.

    One infallible statement > any amount of popes, saints and theologians.

    You should place your bet on God's guarantee (infallibility) rather than the on opinions of men.

    Yes, I agree that Pope St. Siricius' teaching is probably the strongest argument against BoD.

    There's also an EENS definition that states there is no salvation outside the Church of the faithful, and "the faithful" is a technical theological term that always excludes catechumens.  Msgr. Fenton admitted this.  His "solution" was to say that people could be inside the Church of the faithful without being one of the faithful themselves, so, what I refer to as undigested hamburger ecclesiology ... just as food might be inside the body but not incorporated into it until it's digested.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #100 on: September 05, 2023, 09:32:00 AM »
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  • Quote
    How is it that all the Popes, saints, theologians, and canonists missed the contradiction, but you and Lad found it some 450 years later?
    Pope St Siricius' (died 399) understanding of the necessity of water baptism, and the rejection of BOD, is consistent with 99% of the Church Fathers.  The main exception being St Augustine, who went back and forth on the topic, but in the end, rejected BOD.  The entire "BOD question" originated with those who read St Augustine's pro-BOD position and theorized (but did not teach) that it might be possible. 

    From St Thomas, to St Bellarmine, to St Alphonsus --- all cite St Augustine.  But St Augustine isn't enough for something to be "of Tradition".  For something to be a doctrine, it must be traced back to Apostolic teachings, or Scripture.  There's nothing in Scripture to support BOD and most of the Church Fathers rejected it (i.e. Apostolic teaching is against it).

    Neither did Trent define it as a doctrine.  Neither did Trent make the case that it is Traditional, or Scriptural, or Apostolic.  In fact, Trent's quote of Scripture (where the Holy Ghost and water are necessary) condemns the whole idea.  Trent's example of the 2 requirements for Baptism (i.e. Holy Ghost and water) correspond to the "desire" and the "sacrament" both being necessary.  Not one or the other.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #101 on: September 05, 2023, 11:27:59 AM »
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  • Pope St Siricius' (died 399) understanding of the necessity of water baptism, and the rejection of BOD, is consistent with 99% of the Church Fathers.  The main exception being St Augustine, who went back and forth on the topic, but in the end, rejected BOD.  The entire "BOD question" originated with those who read St Augustine's pro-BOD position and theorized (but did not teach) that it might be possible. 

    From St Thomas, to St Bellarmine, to St Alphonsus --- all cite St Augustine.  But St Augustine isn't enough for something to be "of Tradition".  For something to be a doctrine, it must be traced back to Apostolic teachings, or Scripture.  There's nothing in Scripture to support BOD and most of the Church Fathers rejected it (i.e. Apostolic teaching is against it).

    Neither did Trent define it as a doctrine.  Neither did Trent make the case that it is Traditional, or Scriptural, or Apostolic.  In fact, Trent's quote of Scripture (where the Holy Ghost and water are necessary) condemns the whole idea.  Trent's example of the 2 requirements for Baptism (i.e. Holy Ghost and water) correspond to the "desire" and the "sacrament" both being necessary.  Not one or the other.

    Absolutely.  We had about 5-6 Fathers explicitly reject Baptism of Desire.  St. Augustine very tentatively floated the idea as a youthful speculation but then forcefully retracted it in his post-Pelagian period and made some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  St. Ambrose' oration was the other place that's cited in favor of BoD, but his meaning is far from clear.  He stated elsewhere that not even the devout Catechumen can be saved unless he were regenerated in the Sacrament.  I find the key in that he said of Valentinian that just as not even the martyrs are crowned, even if they are washed, hopefully Valentinian's piety / desire could have the same effect.  But the key there is the "washed but not crowned", where crowning refers to entering the KINGDOM of Heaven.

    St. Augustine's disciple St. Fulgentius also rejected BoD, and then you don't hear another word about BoD until it is revived by the pre-scholastics in the 1100s.

    So the BoDers misrepresent the Patristic record here, with a couple anti-Feeneyite books making the absurd and mendacious claim that there was unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers in favor of BoD.  BoB is a separate matter, where you had some Fathers claim that martyrdom was the only exception to the normal administration of the Sacrament, so an implicit rejection of BoD.  But we needn't dwell on BoB here.

    There's no evidence whatsoever that BoD was revealed.

    So in the 1100s Hugh of St. Victor (pro BoD) was battling with Abelard (anti-BoD).  Peter Lombard then asked St. Bernard for his opinion.  He tentatively answered that he'd rather be wrong with St. Augustine than right on his own, simply relying on the "authority" of St. Augustine, who admittedly did not teach this with any authority, and evidently unaware that St. Augustine had retracted the opinion.  Peter Lombard went pro-BoD, and his Sentences then was a major influence on the scholastics, including St. Thomas Aquinas.

    Pope Innocent II again deferred to the "authority of Augustine and Ambrose".  As we have seen, neither of these authoritatively taught anything of the sort, with Augustine retracting and Ambrose's meaning entirely unclear, and IMO not teaching BoD at all, and he was certainly not teaching anything but merely expressing a hope in the possibility.

    But when St. Thomas went pro BoD, that largely opened the floodgates.

    So, the only way we can know something has been revealed (if not explicitly stated in Sacred Scripture) is ...

    1) dogmatic / unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers
    2) a doctrine derives necessarily (if not implicitly) from other revealed doctrine

    We see clearly that #1 is not the case.  If anything, there's near unanimous Patristic consensus against BoD, thought the Fathers didn't condemn it as heretical per se.

    As for #2, I've never seen a doctrinal demonstration  of it.  We had arguments from "the Good Thief", which are faulty, since the Good Thief died before Baptism was made obligatory.  St. Thomas explains that the Sacraments have both a visible and an invisible aspect, but doesn't demonstrate that they can be separated with regard to the effects of the Sacrament.  Same thing applies to Confirmation, Holy Orders, Last Rites, that they have visible and invisible aspects, but it doesn't mean you can have Holy Orders of Desire.



    Online Stubborn

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #102 on: September 05, 2023, 11:43:44 AM »
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  • Lad:

    Can those who die in the state of grace be damned?
    Trent taught that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament as it is written in John 3:5. Are we bound under pain of mortal sin to believe this?



    Ask a silly question....
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #103 on: September 05, 2023, 11:54:01 AM »
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  • So basically you people want everyone to believe that Almighty God used His Church and ALL of His popes, saints, theologians, and canonists to lead ALL of the faithful astray for 450 years! Such a belief is not only ridiculous, but is tantamount to heresy. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #104 on: September 05, 2023, 12:06:36 PM »
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  • Quote
    for 450 years!
    So you object to the period of 450 years.  But if you're correct, then most of the Church Fathers are wrong, which means that for the period of 1,300 years, (early Church to St Thomas), that God allowed error.


    Which is worse - 1,300 years of error or 450 years? 

    Either way, God allowed a "predominate" view for a long period, and both periods directly contradict each other.  Solution?
    1.  It's not a settled matter.
    2.  It's certainly not doctrine.
    3.  I'd trust the Church Fathers long, long, long before I'd trust the theologians post Trent, who were few and far between and were dealing with the ravages of Protestant error.