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Author Topic: BoD and justification  (Read 34856 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: BoD and justification
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2023, 11:16:20 AM »
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    • DR, water baptism is not replaced by Christ.  Trent condemns this proposition and says that if one “turns into a metaphor” the need for “true and natural water” for baptism, they are anathema. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #76 on: September 04, 2023, 12:05:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 04, 2023, 11:16:20 AM
    DR, water baptism is not replaced by Christ.  Trent condemns this proposition and says that if one “turns into a metaphor” the need for “true and natural water” for baptism, they are anathema.

    I have to agree that DR's last post does suggest turning the water into a metaphor for Christ ... which is in fact anathematized explicitly by Trent.  Argue if you will that individuals can receive Baptism by votum but we can't turn the water and the Sacrament into a metaphor for Christ without incurring Trent's anathema.  I told that it's tenable for a Catholic to believe in Baptism by votum, but I have to reject DR's latest articulation/explanation as untenable and, quite frankly, heretical.  It's essentially what the Prots were claiming and what Trent was anathematizing.
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    Offline In Principio

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #77 on: September 04, 2023, 12:16:06 PM »
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    • Pope St. Siricius' letter contradicts a notion of baptism of desire that some people may hold - that no unbaptized person is in danger of losing salvation if they simply desire the sacrament; but this is not the doctrine of baptism of desire held and taught by Catholic theologians.  The theologians teach that justification through baptism of desire requires perfect contrition; whereas justification through the actual reception of the sacrament does not require perfect contrition. If any one in danger of death seeks baptism, perfect contrition can't be presumed.  Everyone of them that die may lose salvation if they are refused the sacrament.




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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #78 on: September 04, 2023, 12:28:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 04, 2023, 09:42:04 AM
    Please understand, your opinion, my opinion, and the rest of the members of this forum carry no weight in the least.
    I totally understand that, but when Trent says justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament as it is written in John 3:5, we are obligated to believe this, as such, we are obliged to disbelieve in a a BOD no matter who else taught it. I mean, how is it possible to believe in both after Trent saying that?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #79 on: September 04, 2023, 01:00:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: In Principio on September 04, 2023, 12:16:06 PM
    Pope St. Siricius' letter contradicts a notion of baptism of desire that some people may hold - that no unbaptized person is in danger of losing salvation if they simply desire the sacrament; but this is not the doctrine of baptism of desire held and taught by Catholic theologians.  The theologians teach that justification through baptism of desire requires perfect contrition; whereas justification through the actual reception of the sacrament does not require perfect contrition. If any one in danger of death seeks baptism, perfect contrition can't be presumed.  Everyone of them that die may lose salvation if they are refused the sacrament.

    You are twisting and completely butchering the actual citation.  He referred to EACH AND EVERY ONE of them losing salvation, and not some of them.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #80 on: September 04, 2023, 01:03:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 04, 2023, 10:48:58 AM
    Your response to the Pope St. Siricius quote on the other thread typifies the problem.  You stated that infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  But your formulation entails an implied heresy.  When you say that infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament, you imply the corollary that adults can be saved "without the Sacrament".  That is a heretical proposition.  NO ONE can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Period.  At best, you can claim that some people can receive the Sacrament in voto, but in no case can anyone be saved without the Sacrament.

    The way I understand the unanimous teaching regarding BOD, post Trent, is in conformity with the teachings of both St. Alphonsus and St. Robert Bellarmine, among many others. It is also my understanding that BOD supplies the necessary graces of the actual Sacrament while not being the actual Sacrament itself.

    If I’m wrong about this, being a submissive child of the Church, I will gladly retract this belief. Now, in your charity, and although you hold the doctrine of BOD in contempt, can you please give me a reference from some pope, saint, or theologian that states that BOD is an actual Sacrament?

    St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church:

    "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Church:

    De Sacramento Baptismi, cap. 6: “...among the ancients this proposition was not so certain at first as later on: that perfect conversion and repentance is rightly called the Baptism of Desire and supplies for Baptism of water, at least in case of necessity”....."it is certainly to be believed that true conversion supplies for Baptism of water when it is not from contempt but through necessity that persons die without Baptism of water.”


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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #81 on: September 04, 2023, 01:08:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 04, 2023, 01:03:54 PM
    The way I understand the unanimous teaching regarding BOD, post Trent, is in conformity with the teachings of both St. Alphonsus and St. Robert Bellarmine, among many others.

    Hogwash.  I wasn't referring to your belief in BoD, nor arguing against BoD in general.  I was arguing about your articulation of the position.  You stated that infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  As you articulated it, it contains a heretical implied corollary, namely, that adults can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  That is in fact heresy.  No they cannot.  This typifies the muddled thinking of BoDers and why this issue is such a hot mess.

    NO ONE (in the new dispensation) CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.  To say otherwise is a heretical denial of Trent.

    What you should have said if you had any clear understanding of the matter would be ... Infants cannot be saved without the actual in re reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #82 on: September 04, 2023, 01:21:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 04, 2023, 01:08:55 PM
    Hogwash.  I wasn't referring to your belief in BoD, nor arguing against BoD in general.  I was arguing about your articulation of the position.  You stated that infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  As you articulated it, it contains a heretical implied corollary, namely, that adults can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  That is in fact heresy.  No they cannot.  This typifies the muddled thinking of BoDers and why this issue is such a hot mess.

    NO ONE (in the new dispensation) CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.  To say otherwise is a heretical denial of Trent.

    What you should have said if you had any clear understanding of the matter would be ... Infants cannot be saved without the actual in re reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Now go back and read what I wrote again. Sadly you’re looking for a fight when there is none. Of course an infant can’t be saved without the actual reception of the matter (water), form (words, I baptize thee…), and the intention. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #83 on: September 04, 2023, 01:34:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 04, 2023, 01:08:55 PM
    Hogwash.  I wasn't referring to your belief in BoD, nor arguing against BoD in general.  I was arguing about your articulation of the position.  You stated that infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.  As you articulated it, it contains a heretical implied corollary, namely, that adults can be saved WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  That is in fact heresy.  No they cannot.  This typifies the muddled thinking of BoDers and why this issue is such a hot mess.

    NO ONE (in the new dispensation) CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.  To say otherwise is a heretical denial of Trent.

    What you should have said if you had any clear understanding of the matter would be ... Infants cannot be saved without the actual in re reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    No, you said that those of us who hold the doctrine of BOD must believe that it is an actual Sacrament. Can you please give me a reference for this?


    NO ONE CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM OR THE DESIRE FOR IT.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #84 on: September 04, 2023, 01:48:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 04, 2023, 01:34:03 PM
    No, you said that those of us who hold the doctrine of BOD must believe that it is an actual Sacrament. Can you please give me a reference for this?

    I never said that and never held that.  Closest thing I said was that St. Cyprian believed that BoB was the actual Sacrament.  And I also rejected DR's articulation of "water" being a metaphor for Christ (also heretical).  This kind of confusion demonstrates that you really don't understand Trent's theology of the Sacraments.

    You're distracting from your heretical corollary.  Do you believe that adults can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism?  That is what I was responding to, your statement that infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, the implied corollary of which is that adults can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #85 on: September 04, 2023, 01:51:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 04, 2023, 01:21:24 PM
    Now go back and read what I wrote again. Sadly you’re looking for a fight when there is none. Of course an infant can’t be saved without the actual reception of the matter (water), form (words, I baptize thee…), and the intention. :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

    :facepalm:  Come on now, I clearly wasn't talking about infants.  You really are clueless.

    YOU STATED that infants can't be saved without Baptism, but the context of your quote was that you were saying that adults can be saved without the Sacrament.  That is heretical.

    This typifies the hot mess that is BoD theory.  There are a dozen different explanations for what it is and how it works.  If you read Trent the BoDer way, by the way, there's no such thing as a Baptism of Blood that doesn't reduce to a Baptism of Desire.  But St. Alphonsus says there is a BoB that has some "quasi-ex-opere-operato" effect.  Trent rejects this.  There can be no justification without the laver or the desire.  No mention of BoB.  BTW, this is another clear indication that Trent isn't teaching the "three baptisms" here in this passage, since there's no mention whatsoever of BoB.

    St. Alphonsus also holds that temporal punishment is not (always) completely remitted by BoD.  But Trent teaches otherwise.  Trent teaches that there can be no initial justification (vs. justification in Confession after Baptism) without a rebirth, and then defines rebirth as the complete wiping out of anything that would prevent immediate entry into Heaven.  Pope Innocent II, when he made his statements regarding BoD, which he articulated as BoF (Baptism of Faith), said that such a one would hasten immediately to Heaven.  Both of these sources contradict St. Alphonsus' theory that BoD does not remit all temporal punishment due to sin.

    BoD is a complete and unsalvageable hot mess.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #86 on: September 04, 2023, 01:58:25 PM »
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    • Can adults be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism?

    To answer yes is clear heresy.  So you have to stop making statements where you logically imply it, such as by saying "infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament" where you're implying in context that adults can be.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #87 on: September 04, 2023, 02:37:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 04, 2023, 01:58:25 PM
    Can adults be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism?

    To answer yes is clear heresy.  So you have to stop making statements where you logically imply it, such as by saying "infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament" where you're implying in context that adults can be.

    Sadly, you’re trying to pigeonhole me. 


    Is this clearer for you?: AN ADULT CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM OR THE DESIRE FOR IT. :facepalm:
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #88 on: September 04, 2023, 02:40:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 04, 2023, 01:48:41 PM
    I never said that and never held that.  Closest thing I said was that St. Cyprian believed that BoB was the actual Sacrament.  And I also rejected DR's articulation of "water" being a metaphor for Christ (also heretical).  This kind of confusion demonstrates that you really don't understand Trent's theology of the Sacraments.

    You're distracting from your heretical corollary.  Do you believe that adults can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism?  That is what I was responding to, your statement that infants cannot be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, the implied corollary of which is that adults can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism.


    Why did you cut this part of my post out? “NO ONE CAN BE SAVED WITHOUT THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM OR THE DESIRE FOR IT.”
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #89 on: September 04, 2023, 02:41:44 PM »
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    • Lad:

    Can those who die in the state of grace be damned?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
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