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Author Topic: BoD and justification  (Read 8723 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: BoD and justification
« Reply #270 on: September 20, 2023, 07:24:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 20, 2023, 07:06:52 AM
    Stubborn, that is taught by Vatican I when describing the infallibility of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.
    No, that is not taught by V1.
    Do you know what is meant by the Church's use of the word "Universal?" Today's bishops, or even the bishops from any particular era is not the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #271 on: September 20, 2023, 09:40:55 AM »
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    I'm not sure I understand the debate.  Bishops (at least those with jurisdiction) are considered part of the Ecclesia Docens but are not themselves THE Ecclesia Docens. 
    Right.



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    that Bishop Hay, Saint Alphonsus, and Saint Robert were all part of the Ecclesia docens
    QuoV asserted the above, which is incorrect.  Which means, that none of the above are immune from error and their interpretations of Trent are simple, theological opinions.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #272 on: September 20, 2023, 11:48:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 20, 2023, 09:40:55 AM
    Right.


    QuoV asserted the above, which is incorrect.  Which means, that none of the above are immune from error and their interpretations of Trent are simple, theological opinions.

    The EC is not synonymous with the Infallible Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. The bishops are sent to teach hence they belong to Ecclesia Docens, whereas priests and the laity belong to the Ecclesia Credens or Discens (the Church believing or learning)
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #273 on: September 20, 2023, 12:09:44 PM »
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    The bishops are sent to teach hence they belong to Ecclesia Docens
    Only in limited circuмstances, when they are reiterating dogma and teaching in line with the pope.  This is called 'ordinary and universal magisterium'.


    It's never been proven that BOD is infallible, nor doctrinal, nor authoritatively taught by any pope.  Therefore, there is no "Ecclesia Docens" on BOD, whether from the pope, or any other bishop.  It's all private opinion and theological speculation...which is not part of Ecclesia Docens.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #274 on: September 20, 2023, 12:21:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 20, 2023, 12:09:44 PM
    Only in limited circuмstances, when they are reiterating dogma and teaching in line with the pope.  This is called 'ordinary and universal magisterium'.


    It's never been proven that BOD is infallible, nor doctrinal, nor authoritatively taught by any pope.  Therefore, there is no "Ecclesia Docens" on BOD, whether from the pope, or any other bishop.  It's all private opinion and theological speculation...which is not part of Ecclesia Docens.

    I tentatively backed off of my original belief that BOD is dogmatic (per Saint Alphonsus) due to the fact that several other theologians hold it to a lesser theological note.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #275 on: September 20, 2023, 01:15:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 20, 2023, 12:21:43 PM
    I tentatively backed off of my original belief that BOD is dogmatic (per Saint Alphonsus) due to the fact that several other theologians hold it to a lesser theological note.

    Well, the majority in Father Cekada's survey did not consider it de fide.  Nevertheless, you're entitled to opine that it is.  Given the history of what is obviously nothing more than speculation and not rooted in the Deposit of Revelation, nor can it be proven theologically as deriving from the Deposit, it can never become anything more than speculation.

    I await a demonstration of how BoD is revealed truth, a theological demonstration, and a gratuitous assertion of any opinion.  In order for BoD to be dogmatic, it must have been revealed.  Where's the evidence that this was revealed.  In fact, there's a mountain of evidence that it was not revealed.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #276 on: September 20, 2023, 01:51:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 20, 2023, 01:15:36 PM
    Well, the majority in Father Cekada's survey did not consider it de fide.  Nevertheless, you're entitled to opine that it is.  Given the history of what is obviously nothing more than speculation and not rooted in the Deposit of Revelation, nor can it be proven theologically as deriving from the Deposit, it can never become anything more than speculation.

    I await a demonstration of how BoD is revealed truth, a theological demonstration, and a gratuitous assertion of any opinion.  In order for BoD to be dogmatic, it must have been revealed.  Where's the evidence that this was revealed.  In fact, there's a mountain of evidence that it was not revealed.

    Yes, very true. But I pause on holding it as dogmatic simply due to the fact that it isn’t held as such by many other theologians.

    PS: I’m happy our conversational tone has improved, thanks!
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: BoD and justification
    « Reply #277 on: September 20, 2023, 10:54:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on September 20, 2023, 01:51:26 PM
    Yes, very true. But I pause on holding it as dogmatic simply due to the fact that it isn’t held as such by many other theologians.

    PS: I’m happy our conversational tone has improved, thanks!
    Quo, do you believe that St Alphonsus's version of BoD contradicted Trent on Initial Justification?
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