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Author Topic: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch  (Read 18457 times)

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2025, 10:31:42 AM »
You believe that 100 percent Jєωιѕн narrative? lol
He escaped to drink non-alcoholic Pilsner on the Copacabana?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2025, 10:35:24 AM »
Maybe this is just semantics to you, but it seems like that’s the difference.  “Feeneyites” (I’m not using the term as a pejorative, just a descriptor) say salvation of non Catholics never happens.  Non feeneyite trads see it as the exception, an outlier, something that could happen by God’s grace despite everything else.  But most of the NO seems to see it as NORMATIVE.  Something that happens through, rather than merely despite, false religions

OK, but if you look at the Novus Ordo Watch quote, they attacked John XXIII saying that it's possible for people to be saved without converting, not just for making it normative or normal or common.  At the end of the day, there's not much theological difference between saying 1 out of 1,000 can be saved without converting or saying that 900 out of 1,000 can be saved.  It's all speculation anyway, since we don't know the actual numbers.  But if you say that 1 can be saved without conversion, then why not 10, why not 100? ... and certainly none are prevented from being saved by any kind of theological necessity.

So, for instance, even among Catholics ... you could claim that 99% of Catholics are saved, or argue that 1% are saved, but that's speculation regarding the state of souls more than it entails some theological principle.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2025, 10:44:59 AM »
So, what happens to a soul that is justified but not saved? They get to spend eternity with minimal suffering in the upper parts of Hell? Something close to what children in Limbo experience?

Depends on the soul.  I don't intend to turn this thread into a debate about the details.  I personally hold that some can in fact be in a Limbo-like state approximating the state of infants in Purgatory.  Some might experience varying degrees of happiness or unhappiness depending on the state of their soulus.  But, Father Feeney said, "we don't know."  And he's right.  God did not reveal it.  We're just speculating.

But the main point is ... it's NOT HERESY AGAINST TRENT to hold that one can be justified (but not saved) by BoD, since Trent uses the term justification, and the term is distinct from salvation, and we have post-Tridentine theologians who make that distinction.

I do believe that some can enter states with varying degrees of natural happiness ... perhaps a type of "Happy Hunting Ground".

And this is one of the reasons that people have an aversion to EENS dogma, this monolothic view of Hell where, a Jєωιѕн grandma who was kind, generous, and perhaps even gave her life for her grandchildren ... ends up in the same one-temperature cauldron, as it were, along side Joe Stalin or various brutal serial killers.  This monolothic view, which was dispelled by even one of the Church's EENS definitions, which states that people in Hell suffering punishments proportionate to their deeds.  Well, the corollary to that is that there's a proportional lack of punishment, i.e. less punishment, and possibly even very little if any punishment, depending on their degree of natural virtue vs. their sins, etc.

I started a thread on this notion at one point, but for now it suffices to say that it's not a "heretical denial of Trent" to hold the position Father Feeney did, leaving the only thing that condemns his position as being the dubious Suprema Haec, which not only lacks the marks of infallibility, but even lacks the note of authenticity per Canon Law, which stated that in order for a docuмent to be deemed "authentic" (as in even merely authentic) Magisterium, it had to appear in Acta Apostolicae Sedis.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2025, 10:55:36 AM »
What is glossed over in the whole "muslim debate" is that you can't desire something you don't know.  This is a philosophical truism.

Indeed, Msgr. Fenton (who supported BoD) stated that the majority theological opinion was that one needs to have explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation to be saved (the teaching of St. Thomas, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Alphonsus) ... so the "Muslim" scenario has little to do even with BoD proper, but more a "faith of desire".  So if they can attack us for rejecting the teaching of these Doctors on BoD (clearly they were opining, not teaching), then, guess what, we attack YOU for rejecting their teaching that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are required for salvation.  But, see, the use St. Thomas as a weapon when he supports their position, and then ignore him when he rejects their positions.  Intellectual dishonesty in spades.

I hold that the necessity of explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation for salvation is objectively de fide, not just majority theological opinion.  Why?  Because it was held and taught unanimously for the first nearly-1500 years of Church history.  If anything qualifies as an infallible teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium, it would be this, and if this isn't it, then there's no such thing.  But in the late 1400s, after the discovery of the New World, a Franciscan and a couple of Jesuits began to float Rewarder God theory, since they didn't want to accept that all these natives in the undiscovered continents had been lost for 1500 years.  So they did theology based on emotion.

Let me get this straight.  So it's OK for those guys to come along and reject 1500 years of unanimous Catholics teaching and belief, whereas if the Feeneyites reject the theological consensus of a couple hundreds years at most, they're heretics, right?  Talk about self-serving contradictions and dishonesty.  In point of fact, for about 700 years, all theologians held the position of St. Augustine regarding the fate of unbaptized infants in Limbo, from about 400 - 1100 or so.  But then Abelard (who also rejected BoD) became the first to question it.  St. Thomas eventually adopted and taught the notion of Limbo, and from there it's become the dominant position.  So which theological consensus was effectively inerrant?  When they taught one thing for 700 years, or the opposite for the last 700 years?

Oh, and then the Holy Office affirmed the teaching that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are "necessary by necessity of means for salvation" ... and forbade priests to baptize those who merely professed belief in a Rewarder God.  But the anti-Feeneyite SVs hit you over the head with Suprema Haec as if it were a dogmatic definition, but simply ignore this other ruling from the Holy Office, and ignore also the Holy Office teaching regarding geocentrism (since I don't know a single SV geocentrist).  It's pick or choose according to their confirmation bias, where they ignore stuff that doesn't fit in with what they've decided ahead of time that they want to believe.

Oh, and speaking of unanimous teaching of theologians, all theologians unanimously approved of Vatican II and considered it and the NOM to be Catholic ... except perhaps one (Bishop Guerard des Lauriers).  These are in many cases the very same theologians the SVs might cite against BoD, but then they somehow believe they all apostasized en masse on one sunny afternoon in, say, 1962 or 1963, exact date TBD.

Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2025, 11:28:55 AM »
Depends on the soul.  I don't intend to turn this thread into a debate about the details.  I personally hold that some can in fact be in a Limbo-like state approximating the state of infants in Purgatory.  Some might experience varying degrees of happiness or unhappiness depending on the state of their soulus.  But, Father Feeney said, "we don't know."  And he's right.  God did not reveal it.  We're just speculating.

But the main point is ... it's NOT HERESY AGAINST TRENT to hold that one can be justified (but not saved) by BoD, since Trent uses the term justification, and the term is distinct from salvation, and we have post-Tridentine theologians who make that distinction.

I do believe that some can enter states with varying degrees of natural happiness ... perhaps a type of "Happy Hunting Ground".

And this is one of the reasons that people have an aversion to EENS dogma, this monolothic view of Hell where, a Jєωιѕн grandma who was kind, generous, and perhaps even gave her life for her grandchildren ... ends up in the same one-temperature cauldron, as it were, along side Joe Stalin or various brutal serial killers.  This monolothic view, which was dispelled by even one of the Church's EENS definitions, which states that people in Hell suffering punishments proportionate to their deeds.  Well, the corollary to that is that there's a proportional lack of punishment, i.e. less punishment, and possibly even very little if any punishment, depending on their degree of natural virtue vs. their sins, etc.

I started a thread on this notion at one point, but for now it suffices to say that it's not a "heretical denial of Trent" to hold the position Father Feeney did, leaving the only thing that condemns his position as being the dubious Suprema Haec, which not only lacks the marks of infallibility, but even lacks the note of authenticity per Canon Law, which stated that in order for a docuмent to be deemed "authentic" (as in even merely authentic) Magisterium, it had to appear in Acta Apostolicae Sedis.

Thank you.

I agree. Although it is solid and long taught doctrine, as Our Lord himself says in the Gospel, that both Heaven and Hell have different degrees of happiness and suffering, most Catholics these days seem to think that it is either zero or one, all or nothing at all.

Plus, people hold as legitimate everything that a Modernist Cardinal did before Vatican II, like the condemnation of Fr. Feeney by Cardinal Cushing, a major Modernist, but avoid everything that he did after the evil Council. So much for consistency. It's as if all the good and saintly boys were suddenly possessed by the Devil during Vatican II and suddenly became major Modernists.