Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch  (Read 1016 times)

0 Members and 10 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Giovanni Berto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1355
  • Reputation: +1097/-81
  • Gender: Male
Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 10:41:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not only that, but one gets the impression that the SVs who vocally denounce the Conciliars as Modernist heretics consider the "Feeneyites" to be worse heretics than even the Modernist Conciliars.  I bet if you asked them whether Father Feeney or Bergoglio was the worse heretic, many / most would ansewr Father Feeney.  You can almost hear them begin foaming at the mouth with the mere mention of Father Feeney.  That does not come from a good place, but from somewhere diabolical.  At most you can say, "well, I think the Feeneyites take it too far to the extreme.", i.e. perhaps take the EENS dogmatic definitions "too literally" or something, representing an excess of zeal.  But, no, Feeneyites are "horrible apostates" ... for believing EENS dogma verbatim, and somehow believing that EENS doesn't mean the opposite of what it actually says, i.e. where they hold that you're a heretic if you believe that only Catholics can be saved.  You can say it's about Baptism of Desire ... except that they could hardly care less about that.  BoD is just an excuse they use to gut EENS dogma, which they find distasteful and almost odious.  So they "re-interpret" it so that what the Church REALLY means by it is ... the opposite of what it actually says.  Whenever you see such inversions, again the scent of sulfur makes its presence known.  But most of them go around blithely saying that pagans, heretics, Hindus, Muslmis, etc. ... can all be saved, i.e. verbatim denying EENS dogma.  At the VERY LEAST it's proximate to heresy and offensive to pious ears, to make statements that verbatim contradict a dogmatic definiton of the Church.  To get the REAL interpretation of what the Church means, you have to read a dozen pages from theologians who lived hundreds of years after the definitions were made.  So, a simple Catholic can't just say, "oh, this says that only Catholics can save their souls" ... but instead is required to digest about 10 pages of distinctions and nuances that truly explain what those one- or two- sentence definitions REALLY mean, namely the opposite of what they say, and if you don't believe the opposite of what it says, then you're a heretic.  You could completely prescind from any discussion of BoD ... which in fact I have not mentioned direction on X at all, just the notion of there being no salvation for non-Catholics.

    Perhaps the closest thing to a halfway solid argument they have is that you're rejecting the Council of Trent, making you a heretic.  So, even if you understand Trent the way they claim it should be understood, Father Feeney believed that there can be justification by desire.  That's what Trent teaches (even by your reading).  Please explain the heresy.  You get crickets.  Then you add onto it that Father Feeney did not invent the distinction between justification and salvation, but that post-Tridentine theologians like the Dominican Melchior Cano distinguished between the two, holding that infidels (for instance) could be justified but not saved ... and Cano was not condemned for that distinction.  So, again, please tell me the heresy one commits by believing in justificaition by desire.  You could ARGUE that's a false distinction ... but, guess what ... you're not the Church, so you know what they say about opinions, that like certain body parts, everybody has one.  As for "Suprema Haec", apart from the fact that it isn't even considered "authentic Magisterium" by Canonical standards (never appeared in AAS), many theologians disputed the infallibility of decrees from the Holy Office.  I then ask these SVs how many of them are geocentrists?  Again, I heard crickets.  Well ... the Holy Office condemned non-geocentrism as being proximate to heresy.




    So, what happens to a soul that is justified but not saved? They get to spend eternity with minimal suffering in the upper parts of Hell? Something close to what children in Limbo experience?

    Offline OABrownson1876

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 699
    • Reputation: +572/-27
    • Gender: Male
      • The Orestes Brownson Society
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 11:08:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And both Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen understood that the dogma of Extra Ecclesiam is the foundational dogma.  This is ultimately the dogma which caused to Apostles to lose their lives.  It is the dogma which caused the Jews to spit on Fr. Feeney at the corner of Bow and Arrow Streets when he would preach. 

    In fact, when is the last time a traditional priest or bishop even gave a smack down sermon on "No salvation outside the Church"?  If one can be saved outside the Church, then why would he even bother changing anything about himself?  Just continue to shack up with the girlfriend and walk the three dogs because I can go to the youthful church down the street and be saved!
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76


    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2292
    • Reputation: +1171/-232
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #17 on: Today at 03:11:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeah, the SVs use the "all theologians hold it" ... but then ignore the fact that "all theologians" went along with Vatican II and the New Mass.  97-99% of all the Episcopal Sees were held by Arians during that Crisis.
    I'm still watching that video, and they keep saying "sensus fidelium", that "every" Catholic believed the same thing meaning it was true. I don't think I've seen this doctrine anywhere. The only thing I've seen is that if the fathers have a unanimous interpretation of scripture then that is true.

    Offline Godefroy

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 601
    • Reputation: +622/-66
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #18 on: Today at 04:44:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I had a very negative response from an Américan Avrillé Dominican priest when I mentioned Father Feeney in favourable light.  

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14745
    • Reputation: +6082/-907
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #19 on: Today at 05:07:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm still watching that video, and they keep saying "sensus fidelium", that "every" Catholic believed the same thing meaning it was true. I don't think I've seen this doctrine anywhere. The only thing I've seen is that if the fathers have a unanimous interpretation of scripture then that is true.
    Snip from a sermon on liberal heretics within the Church given by Fr. Wathen....

    "...One of the saints, [St. Vincent of Lerins (died 445)]...  made a statement concerning heresy and orthodoxy which I find both wonderfully intriguing as well as important. He says that the true faith is that which has been held by all people, that is, all the faithful people in the Church, all the time.

    Which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic. Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people, as is liberalism among Catholics today.

    Also an heretical idea can be shown to have been held by a small group of people within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone..."


    There is also Pope Pius IX's Tuas Libenter where he teaches essentially the same thing....

    "...Even when it is only a question of the submission owed to divine faith, this cannot be limited merely to points defined by the express decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See; this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith. But, since it is a question of the submission obliging in conscience all those Catholic who are engaged in that study of the speculative sciences so as to procure for the Church new advantages by their writings, the members of the Congress must recognize that it is not sufficient for Catholic savants to accept and respect the dogmas of the Church which We have been speaking about: they must, besides, submit themselves, whether to doctrinal decisions stemming from pontifical congregations, or to points of doctrine which, with common and constant consent, are held in the Church as truths and as theological conclusions so certain that opposing opinions, though they may not be dubbed heretical, nonetheless, merit some other form of theological censure."
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline AnthonyPadua

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2292
    • Reputation: +1171/-232
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #20 on: Today at 05:41:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Snip from a sermon on liberal heretics within the Church given by Fr. Wathen....

    "...One of the saints, [St. Vincent of Lerins (died 445)]...  made a statement concerning heresy and orthodoxy which I find both wonderfully intriguing as well as important. He says that the true faith is that which has been held by all people, that is, all the faithful people in the Church, all the time.

    Which is to say that any idea that has not been held as a part of Catholic doctrine through all the generations of the Church by the vast majority of the people, is not Catholic. Which is to say that at any given time an idea can be widely held even by the vast majority of the people, as is liberalism among Catholics today.

    Also an heretical idea can be shown to have been held by a small group of people within the Church all through history or during a number of generations of history. But the true doctrine of the Church is that which has been held always by everyone..."


    There is also Pope Pius IX's Tuas Libenter where he teaches essentially the same thing....

    "...Even when it is only a question of the submission owed to divine faith, this cannot be limited merely to points defined by the express decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See; this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith. But, since it is a question of the submission obliging in conscience all those Catholic who are engaged in that study of the speculative sciences so as to procure for the Church new advantages by their writings, the members of the Congress must recognize that it is not sufficient for Catholic savants to accept and respect the dogmas of the Church which We have been speaking about: they must, besides, submit themselves, whether to doctrinal decisions stemming from pontifical congregations, or to points of doctrine which, with common and constant consent, are held in the Church as truths and as theological conclusions so certain that opposing opinions, though they may not be dubbed heretical, nonetheless, merit some other form of theological censure."
     
    Ok thanks for explaining it. I was a bit unsure due to the same kind of people saying that BoD is true for a similar reason.

    Offline ByzCat3000

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1950
    • Reputation: +518/-147
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #21 on: Today at 05:58:50 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't care so much about the banning ... as their nonsense has gotten incredibly tedious anyway ... with them providing absolutely nothing of value.  They bloviate about how the Novus Ordo is a false religion, a non-Catholic sect ... but then do nothing but watch and analyze every single move they make, evey time a clown dances down the aisle in a Novus Ordo church (not unlike Tradition in Action that way).

    But the ABSURDITY of their condemning Roncalli for saying people did not have to convert to the Catholic religion in order to be saved ... while the Trad clergy these gusy support ALL HOLD THE SAME THING.  Are they really that stupid ... or just intellectually dishonest?


    I just saw a video posted from lofton saying that Muslims, and people of other religions, can be saved “through the goodness found in their religion”

    Maybe this is just semantics to you, but it seems like that’s the difference.  “Feeneyites” (I’m not using the term as a pejorative, just a descriptor) say salvation of non Catholics never happens.  Non feeneyite trads see it as the exception, an outlier, something that could happen by God’s grace despite everything else.  But most of the NO seems to see it as NORMATIVE.  Something that happens through, rather than merely despite, false religions


    I could maybe see a philosophical argument that this is just straining at words, but in practice, it does seem to make a pretty big difference.  Lefebvre seemed to care a lot more about evangelizing non Catholics than a lot of the NO does

    (similar debates exist in Orthodoxy, although I feel like in Orthodoxy everyone is a lot less sure of themselves and there’s a lot more “we don’t quite know, but this is what we tentatively think”)

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12179
    • Reputation: +7689/-2346
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #22 on: Today at 09:12:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I just saw a video posted from lofton saying that Muslims, and people of other religions, can be saved “through the goodness found in their religion”

    Maybe this is just semantics to you, but it seems like that’s the difference.  “Feeneyites” (I’m not using the term as a pejorative, just a descriptor) say salvation of non Catholics never happens.  Non feeneyite trads see it as the exception, an outlier, something that could happen by God’s grace despite everything else.  But most of the NO seems to see it as NORMATIVE.  Something that happens through, rather than merely despite, false religions.
    Yes, there are many people who see this as simply semantics, and that's why their thoughts on this doctrine are so muddled.  If you break it down, as compared to other sacraments, the NECESSITY of LEAVING one's former religion is not optional.  And, further, it's just step 1.

    Woe to these Trad clerics who push this garbage and error.  They proclaim BOD but don't even follow St Thomas or St Bellarmine's (and others') strict standards.
    1.  Belief in the Incarnation/Trinity
    2.  Catechumen of the Church

    Let's simply analyze the case of the muslim.
    a.  Does muslimism believe in the Trinity or Incarnation?  No.  These doctrines are completely at odds with muslimism.
    b.  If a muslim believes in the Trinity/incarnation, is he still a muslim?  No, that would be in contradiction.
    c.  Can a muslim who desires to STAY a muslim, truly desire to enter the Church?  No.  
    d.  Can a muslim who desires to STAY a muslim, truly believe in the incarnation/trinity?  No.  He may intellectually think it's possible, but if he truly believed, then he would leave.

    So you see, the idea of saying that "a muslim can be saved in their religion" means you are saying that an OPEN and PUBLIC heretic, a hater of Christianity, can be saved through Christianity.  This is foundationally foreign to any catholic mode of thinking.  No saint has ever breathed something so diametrically opposed to the message of Christ.

    How does one receive the other sacraments?  Action is involved, and promises.
    a.  Penance -- you have to 1) confess your sins and 2) have a firm purpose.
    b.  Confirmation -- you have to 1) prepare and pick your confirmation name and 2) seek out a bishop.
    c.  Marriage -- you have to 1) vow to your spouse, 2) have intention of 'forever'.

    So, in the same way, *if* one believes in BOD (according to St Thomas/St Bellarmine), then you have to admit the following parameters:
    1.  Person has to believe in necessary doctrines (Incarnation/Trinity, at minimum).
    2.  Person has to have the vow/promise/desire of baptism.

    What is glossed over in the whole "muslim debate" is that you can't desire something you don't know.  This is a philosophical truism.

    BOD only applies to those who KNOW about baptism.  And if you know about baptism, that means you know a) what Catholicism is, b) what the Church is, c) that there is a pope, and priests, and sacraments, etc.

    But a "muslim who is still a muslim" can't really desire baptism, because he hasn't even made up his mind to reject the errors of muslimism.  How can he TRULY desire to enter the Church, when he hasn't decided to reject errors which are contrary to the Church?

    If a man is dating 2 women and he asks 1 to marry him, is his proposal of marriage legitimate, being that he is still dating the other woman?  Most people would say this man is confused (at best) or a scoundrel (at worst).  But to neither woman is this man truly in love, nor is he being truthful with, nor even is he truthful with himself.  

    So it is with BOD.  The requirement of St Thomas/St Bellarmine for BOD to ONLY apply to catechumens is an important one.  For it shows that the person
    a) has forsaken/rejected all other religions, errors and heresies (action)  
    b) is truly open, willing and ABLE to commit, accept and receive the graces of the Church (promise)

    If a person can't even reject their prior religion, then there is a 0% shot that they are serious about Catholicism, much less baptism.  This is why it is a SERIOUS ERROR to describe BOD as applying to people "in other religions" or to say that people "can be saved in other religions".  As Christ told us,

    "He who is not with Me, is against Me."  At the very least, a BOD-candidate has to WANT Christ and His Church.  You can't want Christ, if you can't reject Budda, Muhammed, etc.



    Offline StBoniface

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 6
    • Reputation: +3/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #23 on: Today at 09:30:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So I think most people are not against EENS. The opinion of Bishop Williamson was for example: If they are in x religion, but in "good faith", god may enlighten them at the moment of their death and they will be saved AS catholics (not necessarily my opinion). 
    After your standards, would it be a heresy to say: "Maybe God converted him and safed him at the moment of his death" ?
    Because there are some old stories from saints, where (for example) Our Lord told the seer, that the Freemason (excommunicated ipso facto) was safed by him for the love he showed him on the day of his first communion.

    Offline StBoniface

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 6
    • Reputation: +3/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #24 on: Today at 09:38:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also @Ladislaus:
    The Sedevacantism position should primarily be about the where the church is and not about the pope. The pope question should always be second. 

    I Catholic Church cannot teach error
    II Vatican II and hierarchy impose a new religion on the faithful
    III Vatican II is not Catholic 

    Ergo: They have founded a new church at Vatican II, because they invented ideas like "God is the same for Muslims, Jews and Christians". The Pope lost office by promulgating a new religion, not by merely teaching error. 

    Please excuse my ignorance, but I think the debate about the pope loses sight of the real problem: "What constitutes the real Catholic Church right now?"

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12179
    • Reputation: +7689/-2346
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #25 on: Today at 10:01:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So I think most people are not against EENS. The opinion of Bishop Williamson was for example: If they are in x religion, but in "good faith", god may enlighten them at the moment of their death and they will be saved AS catholics (not necessarily my opinion). 
    Yes, the phrase "as catholics" is the key to avoiding heresy.

    If one says the following, they are a (material) heretic, because their description is a denial of dogma:
    a.  God can save/enlighten a muslim on his deathbed.
    b.  God can save non-catholics who are "of good faith".
    c.  God can save non-cathoics who are "sincere" and who desire "to do what God wills".

    The problem with the above is that it gives the impression that religion doesn't matter.  This denies EENS and it denies the entire PURPOSE of Christ starting His Church.

    The proper, catholic, doctrinal way to explain the above scenarios is:
    a.  God can save/enlighten a muslim to convert to catholicism on his deathbed.
    b.  God can convert non-catholics to catholicism who are "of good faith".
    c.  God can convert non-catholics who are "sincere" and who desire "to do what God wills".

    The key phrase is "convert to catholicism".  If you leave this part out, you are a heretic, by definition.  The doctrine of EENS requires conversion to catholicism, which is the only way to heaven.

    So in saying "God can save a muslim" you are speaking contradiction.  God only saves Catholics.  It should be said, "God can save a muslim by giving him the graces to convert to Catholicism".  This isn't semantics.  This is very precise and important theology.


    Online VivaJesus

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 26
    • Reputation: +19/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #26 on: Today at 10:15:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Maybe this is just semantics to you, but it seems like that’s the difference.  “Feeneyites” (I’m not using the term as a pejorative, just a descriptor) say salvation of non Catholics never happens.  Non feeneyite trads see it as the exception, an outlier, something that could happen by God’s grace despite everything else.  But most of the NO seems to see it as NORMATIVE.  Something that happens through, rather than merely despite, false religions
    Novus Ordo: There is salvation outside the Church because other religions are salvific (see for example Unitatis Redintegratio).
    RCI, CMRI, etc.: There is salvation outside the Church because you can belong to Her soul without belonging to Her body, God is not bounded to save only within the society that He created to save men (the Church), good will and ignorance are salvific, etc..

    There is really no practical difference between those two postures, since they affirm the same thing (that there is salvation outside the Church). The difference is something purely nominal: what is the hidden cause of this salvation outside the Church? Actually, the Novus Ordo position seems less far-fetched and less hypocritical. To be clear: both are heretical.

    Also, the primary reason why we must believe the strict interpretation of EENS is not for the sake of others (what's the chance that today you'll meet an invincibly ignorant person?). It is for the sake of our own salvation. See the quotes by Fr. Feeney in this post.
    Our Lady keep you under her mantle.

    "Blessed is the simplicity which leaveth alone the difficult paths of questionings, and followeth the plain and firm steps of God’s commandments." - The Imitation of Christ

    Online Everlast22

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 866
    • Reputation: +750/-206
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #27 on: Today at 10:20:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The actions/declarations/conversion must be done BEFORE death. Think of it that way. 

    ONE MUST CONVERT, with INTENT to be baptized (in acute fashion as a catechumen) with water into the one Catholic faith professing fully in the Apostles Creed. (Profession of Faith)

    THE BOD thing, to me, seems like something we leave up to God, if everything was done above besides the water being poured. God's providence will always be purely just/merciful.

    Offline Fiorenza

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 36
    • Reputation: +13/-12
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #28 on: Today at 10:27:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It would seem the complaint is that it muddies the waters. The same logic could be applied as well to the death of anyone. If in an augenblick Herr Hitler between pulling the trigger and the muzzle flash repented ....

    It is an interesting theological idea, but potentially scandalous depending on how it's presented... would God desire this level of confusion?

    Online Everlast22

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 866
    • Reputation: +750/-206
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #29 on: Today at 10:28:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If in an augenblick Herr Hitler between pulling the trigger and the muzzle flash repented ....
    You believe that 100 percent Jєωιѕн narrative? lol