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Author Topic: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch  (Read 825 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« on: Yesterday at 12:13:31 PM »
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  • So, I was blocked on X by "Novus Ordo Watch" because they can't handle the truth and pretend to carry on their cognitive dissonance ...




    True or False, Derksen?  If you deny it, please find me examples of Trad bishop and priests who do not hold the position of Roncalli that you posted, namely, rejecting that "non-Catholics must convert to Catholicism to be saved."

    Maybe instead of docuмenting every single Clown Mass in the Novus Ordo, they could actually check their own doctrine ... since they hold the very same error they condemn Roncalli for.

    Pathetic hypocrisy.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 12:18:05 PM »
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  • It's your own fault, you mentioned "Feeneyites" and blew their whole tradition.  :laugh1:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 12:24:33 PM »
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  • I don't care so much about the banning ... as their nonsense has gotten incredibly tedious anyway ... with them providing absolutely nothing of value.  They bloviate about how the Novus Ordo is a false religion, a non-Catholic sect ... but then do nothing but watch and analyze every single move they make, evey time a clown dances down the aisle in a Novus Ordo church (not unlike Tradition in Action that way).

    But the ABSURDITY of their condemning Roncalli for saying people did not have to convert to the Catholic religion in order to be saved ... while the Trad clergy these gusy support ALL HOLD THE SAME THING.  Are they really that stupid ... or just intellectually dishonest?


    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 12:42:31 PM »
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  • Only difference between them and the Conciliar usurpers (on this point) is that the trads will pay mouth service to EENS before denying it..which I think is actually worse
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 01:20:28 PM »
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  • Only difference between them and the Conciliar usurpers (on this point) is that the trads will pay mouth service to EENS before denying it..which I think is actually worse

    Yes, I think you're right ... that it is worse, since you falsely give the impression that you believe in it, where the Conciliars make it clear that they do not.

    There was the one exception with Bishop McKenna stating that EENS wasn't so much a dogma as it was some kind of "warning" sent to non-Catholics to convert .. which means, I take it, that he considered being in the Church necessary by necessity of precept only.

    This is so very sad ... where not only do you have the Conciliar apostasy, nearly the entire Trad movement is a completely sh**show.

    It's also very true that almost everyone who's ever walked onto a sedevacantist chapel reports back that they got a "cult" vibe from it, where it's undeniable that a "leaven of the Pharisees" has largely infected SV groups.  I think the CMRI less so ... but then they too have their issues, especially with EENS.

    Here's the thing about EENS (with most of them using BoD as a distraction, since there are in fact some ways to articulate it that do not inherently undermine EENS, but labor under other issues) ... if you believe that non-Catholics can be saved YOU HAVEN'T GOT A SINGLE (THEOLOGICAL) LEG TO STAND ON in rejecting Vatican II.

    It's so simple that a child can understand it.

    MAJOR:  No Salvation Outside the Church [dogma]
    MINOR:  Non-Catholics can be saved (without converting before they die)
    CONCLUSION:  Non-Catholics can be in the Church (without converting before they die)

    What does that do to ecclesiology?  Now the Church consists not only of Catholics but also can include varieties of non-Catholics, people who are formally Catholics (somehow ... Anonymous Catholics I guess), but also various heretics, schismatics, and even infidels (per most Trad clergy) ... in varying degrees of material proxmity to the "subsistent core" of the Church (i.e. to the Catholics).  They are indeed then our "separated brethren", brethren because they are after all in the Church, but separated (materially) due to belonging to different religions.  Since, then these are in the Church, they are no longer in need of conversion, per se, but would benefit from being drawn closre to this "fullness of truth", which they neverthless possess at least partially in varying degrees.

    Even Religious Liberty follows.

    MAJOR:  I have a right to save my soul and to please God.
    MAJOR:  I save my soul and please God by following my (even erroneous) beliefs and conscience.
    CONCLUSION:  I have a right to follow my (even erroneous) beliefs and conscience.

    In fact, if you get in the way of following my conscience, you may ironically be impeding my salvation, dissuading me from doing what I must to please God and save my soul ... even if what you're presenting to me is the truth.

    Subjective soteriology translates to a right to follow the subjective requirements for salvation.

    None of this is the least bit difficult.  But there's this incredible cognitive dissonance ... and it's especially strong among the SVs, about which I'll post later.


    Online Everlast22

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 02:12:12 PM »
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  • Trad clergy -

    (From the bishop of the church I go to:) 

    Iffy on EENS and pretty much an "okayer" of NFP... 

    Yep.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 02:24:42 PM »
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  • Trad clergy -

    (From the bishop of the church I go to:)

    Iffy on EENS and pretty much an "okayer" of NFP...

    Yep.

    Yeah, that abous sums it up.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 02:40:05 PM »
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  • So the reason that SVs in particular are so hostile to EENS (much more so than R&R) is because in their battles with R&R they ended up making the (age-old) error of moving to the opposite extreme, exaggerating the scope of papal infallibility practically to the point of absurdity, attributing to it an almost absolute inerrancy.  See, if they conceded that a Pope can teach error in fallible statements, then their battle with R&R becomes whether the teaching of V2 meets the notes of inallibility ... which could go back and forth in see-saw fashion without any kind of clear winner.  If they concede that any papal teaching can be erroneous, then why not 2, or 3, or 5?  What's the limit?  Is there a point at which a difference in degree becomes a different in kind?  SVs tout the infallibility of theological consensus, but I've asked them to produce a single post VI and pre VII theologians who holds that popes can never err.  You'll find exactly 0 ... and they just ignore the question.

    In any case, due to their exaggeration of infallibility, for them the old Suprema Haec [sic] might as well be Pius IX's solemn dogmatic definition of the Immaculate Conception, for all intents and purposes.  Father Cekada then also invented this theory about how the consensus of theologians also should be considered inerrant for all intents and purposes also ... something that both historical examples falsify and which a true theologian like Msgr. Fenton explicitly rejects.  I then ask how it is that all theologians (with Bishop Guerard des Lauriers being the only exception that I now of) considered Vatican II Catholic and the New Mass Catholic ... and of course all theologians between VI and VII held that there theoretically COULD be some error in papal teaching.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 02:40:54 PM »
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  • For the V2 church, Traditionalists are the only people who are condemned.
    For Traditionalism, Feeneyites are the only people who are condemned.

    Offline AMDG forever

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 03:10:52 PM »
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  • For the V2 church, Traditionalists are the only people who are condemned.
    For Traditionalism, Feeneyites are the only people who are condemned.

    I don’t think you thought this through…… :laugh1:

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 03:38:31 PM »
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  • So, I was blocked on X by "Novus Ordo Watch" because they can't handle the truth and pretend to carry on their cognitive dissonance ...




    True or False, Derksen?  If you deny it, please find me examples of Trad bishop and priests who do not hold the position of Roncalli that you posted, namely, rejecting that "non-Catholics must convert to Catholicism to be saved."

    Maybe instead of docuмenting every single Clown Mass in the Novus Ordo, they could actually check their own doctrine ... since they hold the very same error they condemn Roncalli for.

    Pathetic hypocrisy.
    Many of these online trads resort to blocking because they can't refute the facts. They have an especial aversion to Fr Feeney and EENS.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 03:43:24 PM »
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  • I don’t think you thought this through…… :laugh1:
    No, it's completely accurate.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 03:45:54 PM »
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  • So the reason that SVs in particular are so hostile to EENS (much more so than R&R) is because in their battles with R&R they ended up making the (age-old) error of moving to the opposite extreme, exaggerating the scope of papal infallibility practically to the point of absurdity, attributing to it an almost absolute inerrancy.  See, if they conceded that a Pope can teach error in fallible statements, then their battle with R&R becomes whether the teaching of V2 meets the notes of inallibility ... which could go back and forth in see-saw fashion without any kind of clear winner.  If they concede that any papal teaching can be erroneous, then why not 2, or 3, or 5?  What's the limit?  Is there a point at which a difference in degree becomes a different in kind?  SVs tout the infallibility of theological consensus, but I've asked them to produce a single post VI and pre VII theologians who holds that popes can never err.  You'll find exactly 0 ... and they just ignore the question.

    In any case, due to their exaggeration of infallibility, for them the old Suprema Haec [sic] might as well be Pius IX's solemn dogmatic definition of the Immaculate Conception, for all intents and purposes.  Father Cekada then also invented this theory about how the consensus of theologians also should be considered inerrant for all intents and purposes also ... something that both historical examples falsify and which a true theologian like Msgr. Fenton explicitly rejects.  I then ask how it is that all theologians (with Bishop Guerard des Lauriers being the only exception that I now of) considered Vatican II Catholic and the New Mass Catholic ... and of course all theologians between VI and VII held that there theoretically COULD be some error in papal teaching.
    There was a recent video here posted on aliens and ai, i couldn't help but notice something. The guy said that to every Catholic believes the same thing then it's true because something about the Holy Ghost. This doesn't sound right to me and sounds similar to what many say about universal accpetianc or stuff used against EENS because "everyone believed against it".

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 04:08:00 PM »
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  • For the V2 church, Traditionalists are the only people who are condemned.
    For Traditionalism, Feeneyites are the only people who are condemned.

    Not only that, but one gets the impression that the SVs who vocally denounce the Conciliars as Modernist heretics consider the "Feeneyites" to be worse heretics than even the Modernist Conciliars.  I bet if you asked them whether Father Feeney or Bergoglio was the worse heretic, many / most would ansewr Father Feeney.  You can almost hear them begin foaming at the mouth with the mere mention of Father Feeney.  That does not come from a good place, but from somewhere diabolical.  At most you can say, "well, I think the Feeneyites take it too far to the extreme.", i.e. perhaps take the EENS dogmatic definitions "too literally" or something, representing an excess of zeal.  But, no, Feeneyites are "horrible apostates" ... for believing EENS dogma verbatim, and somehow believing that EENS doesn't mean the opposite of what it actually says, i.e. where they hold that you're a heretic if you believe that only Catholics can be saved.  You can say it's about Baptism of Desire ... except that they could hardly care less about that.  BoD is just an excuse they use to gut EENS dogma, which they find distasteful and almost odious.  So they "re-interpret" it so that what the Church REALLY means by it is ... the opposite of what it actually says.  Whenever you see such inversions, again the scent of sulfur makes its presence known.  But most of them go around blithely saying that pagans, heretics, Hindus, Muslmis, etc. ... can all be saved, i.e. verbatim denying EENS dogma.  At the VERY LEAST it's proximate to heresy and offensive to pious ears, to make statements that verbatim contradict a dogmatic definiton of the Church.  To get the REAL interpretation of what the Church means, you have to read a dozen pages from theologians who lived hundreds of years after the definitions were made.  So, a simple Catholic can't just say, "oh, this says that only Catholics can save their souls" ... but instead is required to digest about 10 pages of distinctions and nuances that truly explain what those one- or two- sentence definitions REALLY mean, namely the opposite of what they say, and if you don't believe the opposite of what it says, then you're a heretic.  You could completely prescind from any discussion of BoD ... which in fact I have not mentioned direction on X at all, just the notion of there being no salvation for non-Catholics.

    Perhaps the closest thing to a halfway solid argument they have is that you're rejecting the Council of Trent, making you a heretic.  So, even if you understand Trent the way they claim it should be understood, Father Feeney believed that there can be justification by desire.  That's what Trent teaches (even by your reading).  Please explain the heresy.  You get crickets.  Then you add onto it that Father Feeney did not invent the distinction between justification and salvation, but that post-Tridentine theologians like the Dominican Melchior Cano distinguished between the two, holding that infidels (for instance) could be justified but not saved ... and Cano was not condemned for that distinction.  So, again, please tell me the heresy one commits by believing in justificaition by desire.  You could ARGUE that's a false distinction ... but, guess what ... you're not the Church, so you know what they say about opinions, that like certain body parts, everybody has one.  As for "Suprema Haec", apart from the fact that it isn't even considered "authentic Magisterium" by Canonical standards (never appeared in AAS), many theologians disputed the infallibility of decrees from the Holy Office.  I then ask these SVs how many of them are geocentrists?  Again, I heard crickets.  Well ... the Holy Office condemned non-geocentrism as being proximate to heresy.



    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
    « Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 04:57:55 PM »
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  • There was a recent video here posted on aliens and ai, i couldn't help but notice something. The guy said that to every Catholic believes the same thing then it's true because something about the Holy Ghost. This doesn't sound right to me and sounds similar to what many say about universal accpetianc or stuff used against EENS because "everyone believed against it".

    Yeah, the SVs use the "all theologians hold it" ... but then ignore the fact that "all theologians" went along with Vatican II and the New Mass.  97-99% of all the Episcopal Sees were held by Arians during that Crisis.