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Author Topic: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch  (Read 18504 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2025, 10:01:49 AM »
Quote from: StBoniface on July 01, 2025, 09:30:03 AM
So I think most people are not against EENS. The opinion of Bishop Williamson was for example: If they are in x religion, but in "good faith", god may enlighten them at the moment of their death and they will be saved AS catholics (not necessarily my opinion). 
Yes, the phrase "as catholics" is the key to avoiding heresy.

If one says the following, they are a (material) heretic, because their description is a denial of dogma:
a.  God can save/enlighten a muslim on his deathbed.
b.  God can save non-catholics who are "of good faith".
c.  God can save non-cathoics who are "sincere" and who desire "to do what God wills".

The problem with the above is that it gives the impression that religion doesn't matter.  This denies EENS and it denies the entire PURPOSE of Christ starting His Church.

The proper, catholic, doctrinal way to explain the above scenarios is:
a.  God can save/enlighten a muslim to convert to catholicism on his deathbed.
b.  God can convert non-catholics to catholicism who are "of good faith".
c.  God can convert non-catholics who are "sincere" and who desire "to do what God wills".

The key phrase is "convert to catholicism".  If you leave this part out, you are a heretic, by definition.  The doctrine of EENS requires conversion to catholicism, which is the only way to heaven.

So in saying "God can save a muslim" you are speaking contradiction.  God only saves Catholics.  It should be said, "God can save a muslim by giving him the graces to convert to Catholicism".  This isn't semantics.  This is very precise and important theology.
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Offline VivaJesus

Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2025, 10:15:34 AM »
Quote from: ByzCat3000 on July 01, 2025, 05:58:50 AM
Maybe this is just semantics to you, but it seems like that’s the difference.  “Feeneyites” (I’m not using the term as a pejorative, just a descriptor) say salvation of non Catholics never happens.  Non feeneyite trads see it as the exception, an outlier, something that could happen by God’s grace despite everything else.  But most of the NO seems to see it as NORMATIVE.  Something that happens through, rather than merely despite, false religions
Novus Ordo: There is salvation outside the Church because other religions are salvific (see for example Unitatis Redintegratio).
RCI, CMRI, etc.: There is salvation outside the Church because you can belong to Her soul without belonging to Her body, God is not bounded to save only within the society that He created to save men (the Church), good will and ignorance are salvific, etc..

There is really no practical difference between those two postures, since they affirm the same thing (that there is salvation outside the Church). The difference is something purely nominal: what is the hidden cause of this salvation outside the Church? Actually, the Novus Ordo position seems less far-fetched and less hypocritical. To be clear: both are heretical.

Also, the primary reason why we must believe the strict interpretation of EENS is not for the sake of others (what's the chance that today you'll meet an invincibly ignorant person?). It is for the sake of our own salvation. See the quotes by Fr. Feeney in this post.
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Offline Everlast22

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2025, 10:20:56 AM »
The actions/declarations/conversion must be done BEFORE death. Think of it that way. 

ONE MUST CONVERT, with INTENT to be baptized (in acute fashion as a catechumen) with water into the one Catholic faith professing fully in the Apostles Creed. (Profession of Faith)

THE BOD thing, to me, seems like something we leave up to God, if everything was done above besides the water being poured. God's providence will always be purely just/merciful.
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Offline Fiorenza

Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2025, 10:27:10 AM »
It would seem the complaint is that it muddies the waters. The same logic could be applied as well to the death of anyone. If in an augenblick Herr Hitler between pulling the trigger and the muzzle flash repented ....

It is an interesting theological idea, but potentially scandalous depending on how it's presented... would God desire this level of confusion?
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Offline Everlast22

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Re: Blocked by Novus Ordo Watch
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2025, 10:28:49 AM »
Quote from: Fiorenza on July 01, 2025, 10:27:10 AM
If in an augenblick Herr Hitler between pulling the trigger and the muzzle flash repented ....
You believe that 100 percent Jєωιѕн narrative? lol
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