Quote from: Ambrose

No, Catholics must believe Baptism of Desire.  Baptism of Desire can substitute for the sacrament, thus fulfilling its necessity.  To reject Baptism of Desire is a heresy, and if done knowingly will separate you from the Catholic Church.

Not even the SSPX goes this far.  In fact, there are written agreements between Bishop Fellay and Feeneyite groups, which allow the latter to receive the Sacraments, the Holy Eucharist in particular, at SSPX chapels.  The Holy Eucharist is, of course, the Sacrament of Unity.

IMO, the SSPX is caught in a logical nightmare.  Since the SBC is recognized by the Vatican II church, it puts them in an impossible situation.  Can Bp. Fellay put himself above the Pope?

It may also be that Bp. Fellay is giving the SBC folks the benefit of the doubt that they may not be culpable due to their ignorance.  I tend to support this interpretation personally, and have often believed that Baptism of Desire deniers should be allowed to receive Holy Communion, so long as they are not obviously pertinacious.

I think many of them think they are defending the Teaching of the Church, and are operating under an invincible ignorance as the lawful authorities of the Church have not censured them yet, and their minds are closed due to the persuasive propaganda of their sect.

When a Pope comes again, he will deal with them authoritatively, and at that point ignorance will no longer excuse them.  "He who hears you, hears me."

They don't realize the BOD is ONLY when there is NO time to receive the Sacraments.  Of course, we are all obligated to receive the Sacraments, but sometime things happen to people they have no control over, they die;  without warning.  Yes, good people, with good intentions do at times die.  

Nevermind that is the Lord the giver and taker of life  :rolleyes:.

A person cannot just die before it is his time. God allows a person to die according to His Divine Providence.
 
If someone dies before receiving the Sacraments needed for Salvation is because God knew that this person had bad will and would have not accepted God's grace.

If God knew that a soul has good will, the right disposition and seek Him truly, he would send an angel if necessary, to proclaim the Gospel to that person and grant the Sacraments required for salvation. Water baptism being the very first one.

A person can not just die before it is his/her time, so why then is murder a sin that cries  to heaven for vengeance: murder (Gn 4:10).

Maybe because it interferes with God's plan?  

Sounds like your theory leaves it wide open for judgement of souls.  By that I mean, if your loved one was scheduled to be water Baptized on Sunday, but has a stroke on Saturday, and dies, you can with no doubt say, "Oh well my loved one just fell into Hell, I guess he/she was of bad will".  

 :scared2:  

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ambrose

No, Catholics must believe Baptism of Desire.  Baptism of Desire can substitute for the sacrament, thus fulfilling its necessity.  To reject Baptism of Desire is a heresy, and if done knowingly will separate you from the Catholic Church.

I tell you what - you be the guy defending the idea that salvation is attainable without any sacrament at all and I'll be the guy defending the teaching of the necessity of the sacraments unto salvation.

This is what I mean about these people who start to deny one teaching of the Church, they begin make up stuff.  

Show me where anyone said salvation is attainable without any sacraments at all, except for YOUR POPE FRANCIS, that is.  

You are among the people who denying a Church teaching - or do you now claim that a BOD is a sacrament?

No, of course not. A BOD is No Sacrament At All (NSAA)

You preach a BOD saves. You therefore preach salvation is attainable without any sacrament at all. You are as much of a NSAAer as the pope - and you won't even admit it.

Instead of calling it a BOD, all BODers should start calling it what it actually is, NSAA. You are among the NSAAers because you preach salvation is possible with NSAA.

You are wrong.  The Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire, as noted by St. Alphonsus and many other theologians.  

The Council of Trent taught:

Quote

Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

So Ambrose,
How is it that you post on a thread about the Church teaching via Benedictus Deus, that we are not permitted to interpret Trent - yet you post interpretations of the infallible canons which is not only in direct contradiction to Benedictus Deus, your misinterpretations themselves contradict the infallible teachings themselves.

You are misinterpreting the canons to teach that the sacrament of Baptism is an "Either / Or" proposition.

Since it's an EITHER ... OR, you're saying that one can be justified by receiving the Sacrament of Baptism even if you don't have the will for it ... which is  patently false and reduces the entire infallible teaching (which, btw, is all about the necessity of the sacrament, not about the desire thereof) into a meaningless formula.

 

I had no doubt that you would set these distortions aright.

The Apostles of sentiment are indeed persistent.

Why don't you people take all these notes you post here and send them to YOUR pope Francis, he could use your education on NO Salvation OUtside the Church. Francis should hear also that IT IS ONLY THROUGH THE SACRAMENTS that Salvation is necessary, even for atheists, pagans, and non-Catholics to be saved.  He seems to have forgotten these teachings.  While your at it, tell him how important it is that a divorced person can not marry again and be in good standards with the Church.  

Why is it you spend so much energy trying to convince us, but just over look what YOUR pope teaches?

Cantarella says, "Today Saint Benedict Center is in full communion with Rome," are you bragging or complaining about that, I wonder.  

Stubborn just keeps repeating the same ol, same ol stuff, as if that is suppose to mean anything.  

I think you might do a lot of good if you convert your "pope" before you convert others, maybe if Francis truly became a Catholic pope, and we had a pope,  the pope would set you people straight on BOD once and for all.