Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Baptismofdesire.com  (Read 54030 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline saintbosco13

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 647
  • Reputation: +201/-311
  • Gender: Male
Baptismofdesire.com
« on: April 20, 2013, 08:28:46 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Great website for those struggling with the Feeneyism issue.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14648
    • Reputation: +6032/-903
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 03:06:22 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • That website should have the below snip right at the top.............

    So simple and easy, indeed, did the Lord Jesus make the sign of the Sacrament, it is altogether pointless to argue for the fictitious forms referred to as "baptism of blood," and "baptism of desire."
    Should anyone desire baptism, all he needs to do is ask someone to baptize him. Anyone!

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Jehanne

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2561
    • Reputation: +459/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 07:57:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • I am a "Feeneyite" and a Third Order member of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.  I posted on this before but the above website is, basically, "pounding on open doors":

    1)  Baptism of Desire confers sanctifying grace.  We all agree on that and Father Feeney taught it.  Baptism of Desire (or, "desire of Baptism") is a grace given by the One and Triune God, and everyone agrees that it will place an individual in a state of justification before God via the merits of His One and Only Son, Jesus Christ.

    2)  The character of Baptism confers grace.  Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Church's principle Doctor and theologian, taught this explicitly, but it seldom gets mentioned:

    Quote
    As stated above (a. 1, ad 2; q. 68, a. 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but aferwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism.” (Summa Theologica, IIIa q.69, a.4, ad 2)


    Saint Thomas is teaching that a catechumen who dies with only "Baptism of Desire" in the absence of martyrdom and without sacramental Baptism would still have to suffer the temporal punishments in Purgatory for his/her sins.

    So, in Catholic theology, "justification" is not an either/or thing.  There are degrees of reward in Heaven just as there are degrees of punishment in Hell, so in that sense, one can become "more and more" justified before the Triune God over time.

    3)  Catholic martyrs go straight to Heaven.  This is a pitiful "straw man" that some like to "use" against we "Feeneyites."  The only question is, "Has the Sovereign God allowed such martyrs to enter into Paradise lacking the indelible seal of Baptism?"  No one at either of the two Saint Benedict Centers believes that a true martyr for Christ would go to Hell for want of sacramental Baptism, unless one wishes to apply the label "Feeneyite" to those individuals who espouse views which Father Feeney himself would have anathematized.  This brings me to my next point...

    4)  Proving negatives.  While there is universal agreement among traditional Catholics on Points #1, #2 and #3, here is where folks start to diverge.  In particular, "How could you, I, or anyone else ever 'prove,' 'know,' etc., that someone, anyone, was never sacramentally baptized, if only in that person's infancy?"  In other words, to embrace Baptism of Desire as some "standalone" de fide dogma of the Catholic Faith is to try and "prove negatives," cosmic ones, in fact.  Our God is a big God, omnipotent, which means that He can bring the character of sacramental Baptism (and, hence, its graces) to anyone whom He wishes.

    5)  Angels can baptize.  Saint Thomas taught this possibility explicitly but it rarely gets mentioned:

    "But it must be observed that as God did not bind His power to the sacraments, so as to be unable to bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the sacrament; so neither did He bind His power to the ministers of the Church so as to be unable to give angels power to administer the sacraments. And since good angels are messengers of truth; if any sacramental rite were performed by good angels, it should be considered valid, because it ought to be evident that this is being done by the will of God: for instance, certain churches are said to have been consecrated by the ministry of the angels. But if demons, who are 'lying spirits,' were to perform a sacramental rite, it should be pronounced as invalid." (Summa Theologica, IIIa, q.64, a.7)

    "Since the order of Divine Providence disposes that lower things be subject to the actions of higher, as explained above (q. 109, a. 2); as the inferior angels are enlightened by the superior, so men, who are inferior to the angels, are enlightened by them." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.111, a.1)[/quote]

    6)  Angels are outside of "time and space".  Per the Angelic Doctor, they can do amazing things:

    Quote
    "As was observed above in the preceding article, the local motion of an angel can be continuous, and non-continuous. If it be continuous, the angel cannot pass from one extreme to another without passing through the mid-space; because, as is said by the Philosopher (Phys. v, text 22; vi, text 77), 'The middle is that into which a thing which is continually moved comes, before arriving at the last into which it is moved'; because the order of first and last in continuous movement, is according to the order of the first and last in magnitude, as he says (Phys. iv, text 99). But if an angel's movement be not continuous, it is possible for him to pass from one extreme to another without going through the middle..." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.53, a.2)

    "This objection is based on continuous time. But the same time of an angel's movement can be non-continuous. So an angel can be in one place in one instant, and in another place in the next instant, without any time intervening. If the time of the angel's movement be continuous, he is changed through infinite places throughout the whole time which precedes the last 'now'; as was already shown (a. 2). Nevertheless he is partly in one of the continuous places, and partly in another, not because his substance is susceptible of parts, but because his power is applied to a part of the first place and to a part of the second, as was said above (a. 2)." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.53, a.3, ad 3)

    The above concepts were ridiculed in physics, until Albert Einstein came along.  Point is, though, that if angels can baptized, how could you, I, or anyone else ever hope to "prove" or "know" that such did not occur with respect to any particular individual?  Seems kind of silly.

    7)  The Catholic Church has never defined that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism.  We all agree that Baptism of Desire (or "desire for Baptism") confers sanctifying grace, and we all agree that the Sacrament of Baptism also confers additional graces, and we all agree that true martyrs for Christ go straight to Paradise.   If the Catholic Church wanted to define that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism, then the Magisterium could have stated something like this:

    Quote
    "If anyone says that there are no individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism, let him be anathema."


    So, the question if there are persons in Heaven who have ended this life without sacramental Baptism is still "fair game," an open theological question, which is why there are "Feeneyites" who, to this very day, are in full communion with Rome.

    Offline Jehanne

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2561
    • Reputation: +459/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #3 on: April 21, 2013, 08:19:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • I am a "Feeneyite" and a Third Order member of the Saint Benedict Center in New Hampshire.  I posted on this before but the above website is, basically, "pounding on open doors":

    1)  Baptism of Desire confers sanctifying grace.  We all agree on that and Father Feeney taught it.  Baptism of Desire (or, "desire of Baptism") is a grace given by the One and Triune God, and everyone agrees that it will place an individual in a state of justification before God via the merits of His One and Only Son, Jesus Christ.

    2)  The character of Baptism confers grace.  Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Church's principle Doctor and theologian, taught this explicitly, but it seldom gets mentioned:

    Quote
    As stated above (a. 1, ad 2; q. 68, a. 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but aferwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, “He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment,” a gloss says: “He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism.” (Summa Theologica, IIIa q.69, a.4, ad 2)


    Saint Thomas is teaching that a catechumen who dies with only "Baptism of Desire" in the absence of martyrdom and without sacramental Baptism would still have to suffer the temporal punishments in Purgatory for his/her sins.

    So, in Catholic theology, "justification" is not an either/or thing.  There are degrees of reward in Heaven just as there are degrees of punishment in Hell, so in that sense, one can become "more and more" justified before the Triune God over time.

    3)  Catholic martyrs go straight to Heaven.  This is a pitiful "straw man" that some like to "use" against we "Feeneyites."  The only question is, "Has the Sovereign God allowed such martyrs to enter into Paradise lacking the indelible seal of Baptism?"  No one at either of the two Saint Benedict Centers believes that a true martyr for Christ would go to Hell for want of sacramental Baptism, unless one wishes to apply the label "Feeneyite" to those individuals who espouse views which Father Feeney himself would have anathematized.  This brings me to my next point...

    4)  Proving negatives.  While there is universal agreement among traditional Catholics on Points #1, #2 and #3, here is where folks start to diverge.  In particular, "How could you, I, or anyone else ever 'prove,' 'know,' etc., that someone, anyone, was never sacramentally baptized, if only in that person's infancy?"  In other words, to embrace Baptism of Desire as some "standalone" de fide dogma of the Catholic Faith is to try and "prove negatives," cosmic ones, in fact.  Our God is a big God, omnipotent, which means that He can bring the character of sacramental Baptism (and, hence, its graces) to anyone whom He wishes.

    5)  Angels can baptize.  Saint Thomas taught this possibility explicitly but it rarely gets mentioned:

    Quote
    "But it must be observed that as God did not bind His power to the sacraments, so as to be unable to bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the sacrament; so neither did He bind His power to the ministers of the Church so as to be unable to give angels power to administer the sacraments. And since good angels are messengers of truth; if any sacramental rite were performed by good angels, it should be considered valid, because it ought to be evident that this is being done by the will of God: for instance, certain churches are said to have been consecrated by the ministry of the angels. But if demons, who are 'lying spirits,' were to perform a sacramental rite, it should be pronounced as invalid." (Summa Theologica, IIIa, q.64, a.7)


    Quote
    "Since the order of Divine Providence disposes that lower things be subject to the actions of higher, as explained above (q. 109, a. 2); as the inferior angels are enlightened by the superior, so men, who are inferior to the angels, are enlightened by them." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.111, a.1)


    6)  Angels are outside of "time and space".  Per the Angelic Doctor, they can do amazing things:

    Quote
    "As was observed above in the preceding article, the local motion of an angel can be continuous, and non-continuous. If it be continuous, the angel cannot pass from one extreme to another without passing through the mid-space; because, as is said by the Philosopher (Phys. v, text 22; vi, text 77), 'The middle is that into which a thing which is continually moved comes, before arriving at the last into which it is moved'; because the order of first and last in continuous movement, is according to the order of the first and last in magnitude, as he says (Phys. iv, text 99). But if an angel's movement be not continuous, it is possible for him to pass from one extreme to another without going through the middle..." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.53, a.2)


    Quote
    "This objection is based on continuous time. But the same time of an angel's movement can be non-continuous. So an angel can be in one place in one instant, and in another place in the next instant, without any time intervening. If the time of the angel's movement be continuous, he is changed through infinite places throughout the whole time which precedes the last 'now'; as was already shown (a. 2). Nevertheless he is partly in one of the continuous places, and partly in another, not because his substance is susceptible of parts, but because his power is applied to a part of the first place and to a part of the second, as was said above (a. 2)." (Summa Theologica, Ia, q.53, a.3, ad 3)


    The above concepts were ridiculed in physics, until Albert Einstein came along.  Point is, though, that if angels can baptized, how could you, I, or anyone else ever hope to "prove" or "know" that such did not occur with respect to any particular individual?  Seems kind of silly.

    7)  The Catholic Church has never defined that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism.  We all agree that Baptism of Desire (or "desire for Baptism") confers sanctifying grace, and we all agree that the Sacrament of Baptism also confers additional graces, and we all agree that true martyrs for Christ go straight to Paradise.   If the Catholic Church wanted to define that there are individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism, then the Magisterium could have stated something like this:

    Quote
    "If anyone says that there are no individuals in Paradise who lack the character of sacramental Baptism, let him be anathema."


    So, the question if there are persons in Heaven who have ended this life without sacramental Baptism is still "fair game," an open theological question, which is why there are "Feeneyites" who, to this very day, are in full communion with Rome.

    Offline SJB

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5171
    • Reputation: +1932/-17
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #4 on: April 21, 2013, 09:47:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Jehanne
    So, the question if there are persons in Heaven who have ended this life without sacramental Baptism is still "fair game," an open theological question, which is why there are "Feeneyites" who, to this very day, are in full communion with Rome.

    Explain what is meant by "full communion."
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Jehanne

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2561
    • Reputation: +459/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #5 on: April 21, 2013, 11:02:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Jehanne
    So, the question if there are persons in Heaven who have ended this life without sacramental Baptism is still "fair game," an open theological question, which is why there are "Feeneyites" who, to this very day, are in full communion with Rome.

    Explain what is meant by "full communion."


    They have approved diocesan Masses and receive the Sacraments from a Catholic bishop who is in good standing with Rome:

    http://www.saintbenedict.com/

    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-311
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #6 on: April 21, 2013, 11:51:01 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Stubborn
    That website should have the below snip right at the top.............

    So simple and easy, indeed, did the Lord Jesus make the sign of the Sacrament, it is altogether pointless to argue for the fictitious forms referred to as "baptism of blood," and "baptism of desire."
    Should anyone desire baptism, all he needs to do is ask someone to baptize him. Anyone!



    You completely misunderstand what baptism of desire is. Yes, if I knew what baptism was and I desired it, I would just go ask to receive it. But baptism of desire refers to someone who knows nothing about baptism because he has never been educated about the true faith. Let's say a person on a remote island for instance. A person in such a situation who knows nothing about baptism but yet believes there is a God, wanting to fulfill all that God wants of him to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins, implicitly desires the Sacrament he knows nothing about. Pope Pius IX and Pope Pius X clearly speak of this.

    I suggest you look at that website, as it is only one page. If you have questions or feel there is something erroneous with the content, contact them.

    Offline Jehanne

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2561
    • Reputation: +459/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #7 on: April 21, 2013, 12:01:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: Stubborn
    That website should have the below snip right at the top.............

    So simple and easy, indeed, did the Lord Jesus make the sign of the Sacrament, it is altogether pointless to argue for the fictitious forms referred to as "baptism of blood," and "baptism of desire."
    Should anyone desire baptism, all he needs to do is ask someone to baptize him. Anyone!



    You completely misunderstand what baptism of desire is. Yes, if I knew what baptism was and I desired it, I would just go ask to receive it. But baptism of desire refers to someone who knows nothing about baptism because he has never been educated about the true faith. Let's say a person on a remote island for instance. A person in such a situation who knows nothing about baptism but yet believes there is a God, wanting to fulfill all that God wants of him to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins, implicitly desires the Sacrament he knows nothing about. Pope Pius IX and Pope Pius X clearly speak of this.

    I suggest you look at that website, as it is only one page. If you have questions or feel there is something erroneous with the content, contact them.


    In Father Feeney's opinion, the following never occurs:

    Quote
    The Sacrament of Baptism, which was instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ, imprints a "character" on the soul, admitting the recipient to membership in the Catholic Church. The matter of Baptism is natural water poured over the head of the person to be baptized. Throughout the history of the Catholic Church it has been unanimously taught that both Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood, while not Sacraments in themselves, can supply the grace of the Sacrament, when Baptism of Water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.


    Given the One and Triune God's omnipotence over all of His Creation, Baptism of Water is never a "physical or moral impossibility", ever.  However, this is just a theological opinion:

    http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/laisneyism.html

    This is what the "anti-Feeneyite" crowd can't understand; what Father Feeney asserted in his The Bread of Life was at the level of a theological opinion.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14648
    • Reputation: +6032/-903
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #8 on: April 21, 2013, 02:03:03 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: Stubborn
    That website should have the below snip right at the top.............

    So simple and easy, indeed, did the Lord Jesus make the sign of the Sacrament, it is altogether pointless to argue for the fictitious forms referred to as "baptism of blood," and "baptism of desire."
    Should anyone desire baptism, all he needs to do is ask someone to baptize him. Anyone!



    You completely misunderstand what baptism of desire is. Yes, if I knew what baptism was and I desired it, I would just go ask to receive it. But baptism of desire refers to someone who knows nothing about baptism because he has never been educated about the true faith. Let's say a person on a remote island for instance. A person in such a situation who knows nothing about baptism but yet believes there is a God, wanting to fulfill all that God wants of him to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins, implicitly desires the Sacrament he knows nothing about. Pope Pius IX and Pope Pius X clearly speak of this.

    I suggest you look at that website, as it is only one page. If you have questions or feel there is something erroneous with the content, contact them.


    The person you describe does not exist - never has. If you think I am wrong then the burden of proof lies on you to produce evidence of such a person.

    Whoever "knows nothing about baptism because he has never been educated about the true faith" certainly could not desire baptism because he knows nothing about it. One cannot desire for something he knows nothing about.

    Further, "A person in such a situation who knows nothing about baptism but yet believes there is a God, wanting to fulfill all that God wants of him to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins," if this imaginary person did exist, God would see to it that the person received the Sacrament - *that* is what the doctrine of Divine Providence teaches. "For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened."

    The web page you posted is so full of errors that it should be removed from the web before it scandalizes more people than it may have already scandalized.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-450
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #9 on: April 21, 2013, 02:31:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • They martyrology is full of saints who were martyred as catechumens before they were baptized.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Jehanne

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2561
    • Reputation: +459/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #10 on: April 21, 2013, 02:45:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    They martyrology is full of saints who were martyred as catechumens before they were baptized.


    The CMRI only lists two such martyrs:

    Quote
    January 23: At Rome, St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr, who was stoned by the heathen while still a catechumen, when she was praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, whose foster-sister she was.

    April 12: At Braga, in Portugal, St. Victor, Martyr, who, while still yet a catechumen, refused to worship an idol, and confessed Christ Jesus with great constancy, and so after many torments, he merited to be baptized in his own blood, his head being cut off.


    http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_quotes.shtml

    Does the phrase "while still yet a caechumen" prove that the person in question was not sacramentally baptized?  Was it possible to be a "catechumen", that is, someone "in training" for the Catholic faith, and yet still have received sacramental Baptism?

    In any case, we're into trying to "prove negatives," again.  Even in the case of Emperor Valentinian, we could assert, if only as a possibility, that he was, in fact, sacramentally baptized prior to his death and that Saint Ambrose was simply ignorant of that fact.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14648
    • Reputation: +6032/-903
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #11 on: April 21, 2013, 03:02:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    They martyrology is full of saints who were martyred as catechumens before they were baptized.



    Mith,
    St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.


    It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious martyrs through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. *What we do not know is not a proof of anything*.

    Further, if the Church honors anyone as a saint, *according to Her own teaching*, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-311
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 10:57:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Stubborn

    Whoever "knows nothing about baptism because he has never been educated about the true faith" certainly could not desire baptism because he knows nothing about it. One cannot desire for something he knows nothing about.


    Again, this shows you do not understand the topic. Anyone who knows about Baptism knows it is needed to be saved, so they would immediately pursue it upon learning about it. Someone who knows nothing about Baptism (let's say a person on a remote island), but craves to do the will of God, and craves to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins, implicitly desires what is needed to be part of the true Church, and can be granted the grace of the sacrament through desire. THAT is the teaching of the Church. PLENTY of quotes from the Church stating this. Quotes from Pope Pius IX and Pope Pius X are on that website.

    Quote from: Stubborn

    Further, "A person in such a situation who knows nothing about baptism but yet believes there is a God, wanting to fulfill all that God wants of him to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins," if this imaginary person did exist, God would see to it that the person received the Sacrament - *that* is what the doctrine of Divine Providence teaches. "For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened."


    The quote you gave here has nothing to do with God guaranteeing someone will receive Baptism if they want it. You've taken a quote and used it for your own fancy.

    Quote from: Stubborn

    The web page you posted is so full of errors that it should be removed from the web before it scandalizes more people than it may have already scandalized.


    Name some.


    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-311
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 11:05:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Does the phrase "while still yet a caechumen" prove that the person in question was not sacramentally baptized?  Was it possible to be a "catechumen", that is, someone "in training" for the Catholic faith, and yet still have received sacramental Baptism?


    Looking up the definition of "catechumen" in "A Catholic Dictionary", it is defined as "A non-baptized adult under instruction to be received into the Church; a learner. Catechumens receive ecclesiastical burial if they die without baptism through no fault of their own (cf., Baptism of desire)."

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14648
    • Reputation: +6032/-903
    • Gender: Male
    Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #14 on: April 22, 2013, 04:14:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The post will not format properly so I will simply answer without quoting your post above.

    This topic is about salvation without the sacrament which, regardless of whatever else has been taught or whoever taught it - that the sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation has already been infallibly defined so we can rest assured that there is no way around the necessity of it for salvation.

    That "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is also a teaching of the fathers of the Church - i.e. the "magisterium".  As the name itself testifies, the "Baptism of Desire" is the mother of all "good intentions".

    There is no salvation outside the Church means what it says - or it means nothing, the sacrament of Baptism is the only way one enters the Church - this has also been defined infallibly -  so all other teachings and theological opinions must wholly submit to that which is infallible - "and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding." - Vatican Council 1  

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse