Quote from: Mortalium

Father Muller already refuted anything you may think you may have read into Pius IX's words well before you were even born.

No, you are the one accusing Pope Pius IX for teaching a heresy he never taught, just like Muller said.

I find it funny how you quote a Fr. Muller to support your opposition of BOD, as if anyone knows who he is, and as if what he says holds any weight next to all the quotes posted on baptismofdesire.com. FYI - The quotes supporting BOD/BOB on baptismofdesire.com span over 1800 years of the Church and are from the following:

Cyprian Epistle LXXII (3rd Century)
Church Father Cyprian (3rd Century)
Church Father Tertullian (3rd Century)
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (4th Century)
St. John Chrystostome (4th Century)
St. Ambrose, a Doctor of the Church (4th Century)
Pope Innocent III in letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona (12th Century)
St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica – 13th century)
St. Catherine of Sienna (14th Century)
Council of Trent (16th century)
Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century)
St. Alphonsus Ligouri (Moral Theology Manual - 18th century)
Pope Pius IX (19th century)
Baltimore Catechism (19th century)
St. Pope Pius X (early 20th century)
St. Pope Pius X (early 20th century)
Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913): The Baptism of Desire
Canon Law (1917)
A Catholic Dictionary (1931-1951)
Pope Pius XII, Address to the Congress of the Italian Catholic Association of Midwives (1951)

Now you come along Mortalium, and give us quotes from Fr. Muller to try and oppose all of the above sources???? Talk about absurdity.

Think about it people; whenever we are all discussing other doctrinal issues in the Church, we are all typically content with a quote from a Pope or theologian to lay a matter to rest. However with BOB/BOD, quotes from the massive list of trustworthy Church references above is presented, and the Feeneyites look the other way for all of it, and remain obstinate to the end. There is no way any Feeneyite can claim innocence at their judgment for such blatant obstinacy.

All the saints, popes, bishops, theologians, fathers, priests, school teachers, mothers, students and doctors of the Church together cannot over ride defined dogma.

Quote from: saintbosco13

Quote from: Mortalium

Father Muller already refuted anything you may think you may have read into Pius IX's words well before you were even born.

No, you are the one accusing Pope Pius IX for teaching a heresy he never taught, just like Muller said.

I find it funny how you quote a Fr. Muller to support your opposition of BOD, as if anyone knows who he is, and as if what he says holds any weight next to all the quotes posted on baptismofdesire.com. FYI - The quotes supporting BOD/BOB on baptismofdesire.com span over 1800 years of the Church and are from the following:

Cyprian Epistle LXXII (3rd Century)
Church Father Cyprian (3rd Century)
Church Father Tertullian (3rd Century)
St. Cyril of Jerusalem (4th Century)
St. John Chrystostome (4th Century)
St. Ambrose, a Doctor of the Church (4th Century)
Pope Innocent III in letter "Apostolicam Sedem" to the Bishop of Cremona (12th Century)
St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica – 13th century)
St. Catherine of Sienna (14th Century)
Council of Trent (16th century)
Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century)
St. Alphonsus Ligouri (Moral Theology Manual - 18th century)
Pope Pius IX (19th century)
Baltimore Catechism (19th century)
St. Pope Pius X (early 20th century)
St. Pope Pius X (early 20th century)
Catholic Encyclopedia (~1913): The Baptism of Desire
Canon Law (1917)
A Catholic Dictionary (1931-1951)
Pope Pius XII, Address to the Congress of the Italian Catholic Association of Midwives (1951)

Now you come along Mortalium, and give us quotes from Fr. Muller to try and oppose all of the above sources???? Talk about absurdity.

Think about it people; whenever we are all discussing other doctrinal issues in the Church, we are all typically content with a quote from a Pope or theologian to lay a matter to rest. However with BOB/BOD, quotes from the massive list of trustworthy Church references above is presented, and the Feeneyites look the other way for all of it, and remain obstinate to the end. There is no way any Feeneyite can claim innocence at their judgment for such blatant obstinacy.

All the saints, popes, bishops, theologians, fathers, priests, school teachers, mothers, students and doctors of the Church together cannot over ride defined dogma.

You need to learn how Catholicism works. The First Vatican Council mandated the following:

"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Solemn judgment consists of popes and Councils, and the ordinary and universal magisterium consists of all other Church teaching by Saints, popes, bishops, theologians etc. Together they form one infallible magisterium. If an error creeps into the ordinary magisterium, the solemn magisterium corrects it. This is Church teaching and always has been. Go look it up. The list of references above are all unanimous and part of the ordinary magisterium.

You need to learn how Catholicism works. The First Vatican Council mandated the following:

"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Solemn judgment consists of popes and Councils, and the ordinary and universal magisterium consists of all other Church teaching by Saints, popes, bishops, theologians etc. Together they form one infallible magisterium. If an error creeps into the ordinary magisterium, the solemn magisterium corrects it. This is Church teaching and always has been. Go look it up.

I could not agree more. But BOD contradicts dogma so we cannot believe in it.

Certainly then you would agree whole heartedly with this from LG:

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: saintbosco13

You need to learn how Catholicism works. The First Vatican Council mandated the following:

"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Solemn judgment consists of popes and Councils, and the ordinary and universal magisterium consists of all other Church teaching by Saints, popes, bishops, theologians etc. Together they form one infallible magisterium. If an error creeps into the ordinary magisterium, the solemn magisterium corrects it. This is Church teaching and always has been. Go look it up.

I could not agree more. But BOD contradicts dogma so we cannot believe in it.

Certainly then you would agree whole heartedly with this from LG:

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.

BOD/BOB is a unanimous teaching throughout the history of the Church as seen from the large list of references already posted. This by the definition of the First Vatican Council is the ordinary magisterium, which is infallible, and we must believe it.

If BOD/BOB contradicted dogma, the solemn magisterium (popes or councils) would have condemned BOD/BOB, or the sources that teach it.

An example from baptismofdesire.com: There have been over 70 Popes since Baptism of Desire was written about in the Summa Theologica in the 13th century, yet neither the Summa Theologica nor the writing on Baptism of Desire in the Summa Theologica were ever condemned by those 70+ Popes. Why? Did those 70+ popes not notice the error???

The teaching must be constant and universal, which BOD is not, only the Sacrament enjoys that honor - fyi. "Constant" means since the time of the Apostles. The teaching must agree with de fide declarations - that is where you are screwing up your thinking. You think it's the other way around in spite of being proven otherwise numerous times already.

You are denying that which is certainly without the possibility of error while believing that which is error prone - and is so obviously as has already been proven to you.

The website is a disaster because it promotes salvation outside the Church and you are one of it's many victims who does not believe that water is a necessity for baptism and baptism is a necessity be in the Church - you therefore deny  the dogma because you believe that there is salvation outside the Church as LG, the "magisterium" wrongfully dictates.


 

BOD/BOB is a unanimous teaching throughout the history of the Church as seen from the large list of references already posted.

I can't find any "large list of references already posted".

You need to learn how Catholicism works. The First Vatican Council mandated the following:

"All those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

Solemn judgment consists of popes and Councils, and the ordinary and universal magisterium consists of all other Church teaching by Saints, popes, bishops, theologians etc. Together they form one infallible magisterium. If an error creeps into the ordinary magisterium, the solemn magisterium corrects it. This is Church teaching and always has been. Go look it up. The list of references above are all unanimous and part of the ordinary magisterium.

This is all "wishy-washy"; what, exactly, are you accusing the Saint Benedict Centers in Massachusetts and/or New Hampshire of?  Which heresies are they adhering to?  Name those heresies.  In particular, list those sentences in the Bread of Life which you believe to be heretical.  And, finally, explain why a Catholic bishop is giving the Sacraments to public heretics, if you believe the followers of Father Feeney to be such.  And, explain why Father Feeney received a public Mass of Christian Burial by his bishop if he was a public heretic.

BOD/BOB is a unanimous teaching throughout the history of the Church as seen from the large list of references already posted. This by the definition of the First Vatican Council is the ordinary magisterium, which is infallible, and we must believe it.

If BOD/BOB contradicted dogma, the solemn magisterium (popes or councils) would have condemned BOD/BOB, or the sources that teach it.

An example from baptismofdesire.com: There have been over 70 Popes since Baptism of Desire was written about in the Summa Theologica in the 13th century, yet neither the Summa Theologica nor the writing on Baptism of Desire in the Summa Theologica were ever condemned by those 70+ Popes. Why? Did those 70+ popes not notice the error???

The teaching must be constant and universal, which BOD is not, only the Sacrament enjoys that honor - fyi. "Constant" means since the time of the Apostles. The teaching must agree with de fide declarations - that is where you are screwing up your thinking. You think it's the other way around in spite of being proven otherwise numerous times already.

Nothing is taught by the Church unless it originates from revelation. If anyone in the Church is teaching something that has not existed since the time of the Apostles, they are creating new doctrine and would therefore not even be Catholic, and would be condemned as such. So what you are saying is all of the Church Fathers, Popes, General Councils, Doctors of the Church, Saints, Catechisms, Canon Law, and other trusted Church references quoted on baptismofdesire.com that are promoting the threefold baptism, are all promoting new doctrine????? If that were the case, all of those sources would be condemned by the Church as erroneous. Why has not ONE of these sources been condemned?????

The website is a disaster because it promotes salvation outside the Church and you are one of it's many victims who does not believe that water is a necessity for baptism and baptism is a necessity be in the Church - you therefore deny  the dogma because you believe that there is salvation outside the Church as LG, the "magisterium" wrongfully dictates.
 

On the contrary, the website you refer to as a disaster simply presents quotes from Church Fathers, Popes, General Councils, Doctors of the Church, Saints, Catechisms, Canon Law, and other trusted Church references, all in support of the threefold baptism. I am simply the messenger. So let's be clear on this, it is not me you are accusing of promoting salvation outside the Church, but these trusted Church sources that you are accusing. That's quite a claim to make and puts you in a very serious situation.