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Author Topic: Baptismofdesire.com  (Read 57309 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #735 on: May 24, 2025, 04:17:15 PM »
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  • You're quoting Feeney's opinion.  But he didn't consider his opinion as infallible.  Learn to distinguish.

    Online Yeti

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #736 on: May 24, 2025, 04:18:07 PM »
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  • Why does anyone care what an excommunicated priest said about theology, or about anything, really? He was not authorized by the Church to write about theological matters, and wrote his books without the necessary Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat.

    He was not a theologian, but just a simple Jesuit -- for a while, until he was expelled from the order.

    He is not an authority on anything. It just blows my mind that people quote him incessantly as if he were the prophet Isaias instead of a disgraced and excommunicated priest. Even the words that people quibble over were written without the Church's approval and in violation of canon law. There should be no need to refute or even address anything of such a nature.

    The Church is a hierarchical religion. People cannot teach its doctrine without approval from those who are authorized to give such approval, usually bishops or the pope. People are explicitly forbidden to teach Catholic doctrine without such approval. Feeney did not enjoy such approval in the works cited here and in other discussions of his errors. The only works he wrote that had Church approval were works of poetry or light entertainment, in one of which he actually did express belief in Baptism of Desire.

    The whole discussion of his ideas is a complete non-issue for Catholics who understand how the Church works.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #737 on: May 24, 2025, 04:20:59 PM »
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  • You're quoting Feeney's opinion.  But he didn't consider his opinion as infallible.  Learn to distinguish.
    I simply said they disagreed. Even if it were opinions, it was disagreement. As I said. 

    They disagreed as to their opinions. 

    Lord help me!!!!!

    How do you hide someone's post from view again? Can someone help there?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #738 on: May 24, 2025, 04:27:48 PM »
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  • Why does anyone care what an excommunicated priest said about theology, or about anything, really? He was not authorized by the Church to write about theological matters, and wrote his books without the necessary Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat.

    He was not a theologian, but just a simple Jesuit -- for a while, until he was expelled from the order.

    He is not an authority on anything. It just blows my mind that people quote him incessantly as if he were the prophet Isaias instead of a disgraced and excommunicated priest. Even the words that people quibble over were written without the Church's approval and in violation of canon law. There should be no need to refute or even address anything of such a nature.

    The Church is a hierarchical religion. People cannot teach its doctrine without approval from those who are authorized to give such approval, usually bishops or the pope. People are explicitly forbidden to teach Catholic doctrine without such approval. Feeney did not enjoy such approval in the works cited here and in other discussions of his errors. The only works he wrote that had Church approval were works of poetry or light entertainment, in one of which he actually did express belief in Baptism of Desire.

    The whole discussion of his ideas is a complete non-issue for Catholics who understand how the Church works.
    Who was going to give him permission to write on Exclusive Salvation, Yeti? Notorious heretic Archbishop Cushing? His Jesuit superiors who denied Exclusive Salvation?

    Fr. Michael Muller was silenced by his superiors in the 19th century for defending EENS while heretic priests were allowed to attack him and his works while denying EENS. And Fr. Muller even held "BOD". 

    Who is going to defend the most important dogma of the Church if the vast majority of the hierarchy deny it?
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #739 on: May 24, 2025, 04:28:12 PM »
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  • I simply said they disagreed. Even if it were opinions, it was disagreement. As I said.

    They disagreed as to their opinions.

    Lord help me!!!!!

    How do you hide someone's post from view again? Can someone help there?

    No, you went above and beyond just saying it was a disagreement.  You called the "OABrownson" user a hypocrite.  Which means you were elevating a difference of opinion, to a difference of fact.

    You're the one who escalated the situation.  I explained that you're wrong and now you're flipping out. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #740 on: May 24, 2025, 04:32:17 PM »
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  • The Church is a hierarchical religion. People cannot teach its doctrine without approval from those who are authorized to give such approval, usually bishops or the pope. People are explicitly forbidden to teach Catholic doctrine without such approval. Feeney did not enjoy such approval in the works cited here and in other discussions of his errors. The only works he wrote that had Church approval were works of poetry or light entertainment, in one of which he actually did express belief in Baptism of Desire.
    :laugh1: :facepalm:  The entire Traditional movement is based on "excommunicated" clerics who do things "without approval" from new-rome.

    Your error is in not admitting that modernists rats who showed their true colors at V2 in 1962 didn't exist prior to 1962.  :laugh1:  They most certainly did.  And they most certainly were PREPARING for V2 LONG BEFORE it happened, by "shutting up" clerics like Feeney, ABL and Mueller, who the Modernists knew wouldn't go along with V2.

    Online Yeti

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #741 on: May 24, 2025, 04:33:24 PM »
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  • Who was going to give him permission to write on Exclusive Salvation, Yeti? Notorious heretic Archbishop Cushing? His Jesuit superiors who denied Exclusive Salvation?

    Fr. Michael Muller was silenced by his superiors in the 19th century for defending EENS while heretic priests were allowed to attack him and his works while denying EENS. And Fr. Muller even held "BOD".


    .

    Well, if the Church isn't going to give Feeney permission to write about something, then that means it's erroneous. This is pretty simple.

    Quote
    "If he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the infidel." -- Our Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 18:17.

    I've never heard of Fr. Mueller being silenced. He certainly wrote many, many books. Do you have a reference for that?

    Quote
    Who is going to defend the most important dogma of the Church if the vast majority of the hierarchy deny it?

    The Church teachers through her hierarchy. If the hierarchy denies something, then it is not a dogma of the Church.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #742 on: May 24, 2025, 04:36:26 PM »
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  • Well, if the Church isn't going to give Feeney permission to write about something, then that means it's erroneous. This is pretty simple.
    If we lived in orthodox times, you'd be correct.  But of course, we don't.  You can't give most of these post-WW2 clerics the benefit of the doubt....they approved V2.  :laugh1:


    Online Yeti

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #743 on: May 24, 2025, 04:36:48 PM »
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  • :laugh1: :facepalm:  The entire Traditional movement is based on "excommunicated" clerics who do things "without approval" from new-rome.


    .

    You use the term "new-rome" in your first sentence. That's the difference. Traditional priests are excommunicated by a false church.

    But Feeney was excommunicated by Pius XII, whom no one claims was a false pope, not even Feeney himself.

    So this argument is apples and oranges.

    Quote
    Your error is in not admitting that modernists rats who showed their true colors at V2 in 1962 didn't exist prior to 1962.  :laugh1:  They most certainly did.  And they most certainly were PREPARING for V2 LONG BEFORE it happened, by "shutting up" clerics like Feeney, ABL and Mueller, who the Modernists knew wouldn't go along with V2.


    None of this either addresses or refutes what I said. Catholics cannot write anything on theology without the approval of the Church; this is right in canon law. This law exists to guarantee the accuracy of the teaching. Feeney did not have this approval when he wrote on baptism. Therefore the Church has offered no guarantee to the correctness of his teaching; on the contrary, that teaching was given in contravention of Church law.


    Online Yeti

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #744 on: May 24, 2025, 04:37:45 PM »
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  • If we lived in orthodox times, you'd be correct.  But of course, we don't.  You can't give most of these post-WW2 clerics the benefit of the doubt....they approved V2.  :laugh1:
    .

    Feeney lived in orthodox times. He lived in the 1940s. You can't make an argument based on the crisis in the Church today and apply it to those times, before the crisis existed.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #745 on: May 24, 2025, 04:43:04 PM »
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  • .

    Feeney lived in orthodox times. He lived in the 1940s. You can't make an argument based on the crisis in the Church today and apply it to those times, before the crisis existed.
    :laugh1:  1940s to 1963...that's 20 years or less.  Where do you think the Modernists were prior to 1963?  They weren't living in caves.  They were running dioceses, like the modernist Cushing was.  Cushing wasn't a Cardinal, but he was supporting the V2 movement before V2 happened.

    You obviously don't know of the modernist rot of the 'American ecclesiastical Review' books/theological committee in America in the 30s-60s either.  

    Are you really arguing that V2 just happened overnight, with no preparation?  There was no brainwashing/PR which happened in the decades before?  This view makes no sense.


    Online Yeti

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #746 on: May 24, 2025, 04:49:31 PM »
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  • :laugh1:  1940s to 1963...that's 20 years or less.  Where do you think the Modernists were prior to 1963?  They weren't living in caves.  They were running dioceses, like the modernist Cushing was.  Cushing wasn't a Cardinal, but he was supporting the V2 movement before V2 happened.

    You obviously don't know of the modernist rot of the 'American ecclesiastical Review' books/theological committee in America in the 30s-60s either. 

    Are you really arguing that V2 just happened overnight, with no preparation?  There was no brainwashing/PR which happened in the decades before?  This view makes no sense.
    .

    You seem to consider the Church to be a human institution, and indeed one that lacks authority.

    This is seriously erroneous. The Church is protected from teaching error in its universal teaching. It also requires anyone who writes on theological matters to submit their writings for approval to the authority of the Church, which enjoys divine protection from error, and to which we as Catholics are required to submit.

    You are effectively claiming that someone can claim their bishop is a heretic and then consider himself dispensed from the laws of the Church. This is completely false.

    In any case, if what Feeney taught were Catholic teaching, then he wouldn't have needed to write anything at all except to say, "Read Fr. So-and-so, a theologian who teaches that baptism of desire is heretical, or that someone can't be saved with baptism of desire." But he didn't. The reason is that, quite simply, there wasn't any theologian that the Church ever approved, at any point in her history even prior to the modernist crisis, who ever said such a thing. That's why Feeney had to write his own propaganda and claim it was the teaching of the Church.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #747 on: May 24, 2025, 04:58:09 PM »
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  • .

    Well, if the Church isn't going to give Feeney permission to write about something, then that means it's erroneous. This is pretty simple.

    I've never heard of Fr. Mueller being silenced. He certainly wrote many, many books. Do you have a reference for that?

    The Church teachers through her hierarchy. If the hierarchy denies something, then it is not a dogma of the Church.
    https://catholicism.org/father-mueller.html

    You can contact them for a direct citation if this isn't good enough, I've been meaning to myself. I assume they have had access to the letters in question 


    And you do understand that the "Boston Heresy Case" had nothing whatsoever to do with BOD, right? It was about EENS and nothing more, which the "Catholic" teachers and teacher priests were explicitly denying
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #748 on: May 24, 2025, 05:26:17 PM »
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  • .

    You seem to consider the Church to be a human institution, and indeed one that lacks authority.

    This is seriously erroneous. The Church is protected from teaching error in its universal teaching. It also requires anyone who writes on theological matters to submit their writings for approval to the authority of the Church, which enjoys divine protection from error, and to which we as Catholics are required to submit.

    You are effectively claiming that someone can claim their bishop is a heretic and then consider himself dispensed from the laws of the Church. This is completely false.

    In any case, if what Feeney taught were Catholic teaching, then he wouldn't have needed to write anything at all except to say, "Read Fr. So-and-so, a theologian who teaches that baptism of desire is heretical, or that someone can't be saved with baptism of desire." But he didn't. The reason is that, quite simply, there wasn't any theologian that the Church ever approved, at any point in her history even prior to the modernist crisis, who ever said such a thing. That's why Feeney had to write his own propaganda and claim it was the teaching of the Church.
    Ironic. Your claim that Fr Feeney wrote propaganda, is infact anti-Catholic propaganda, and most trads have fallen for it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #749 on: May 24, 2025, 06:03:16 PM »
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  • You seem to consider the Church to be a human institution, and indeed one that lacks authority.

    This is seriously erroneous. The Church is protected from teaching error in its universal teaching. It also requires anyone who writes on theological matters to submit their writings for approval to the authority of the Church, which enjoys divine protection from error, and to which we as Catholics are required to submit.
    :facepalm:  Dude, your utopian view that an orthodox/traditional church is 100% free from error is not possible.  The ONLY person who is free from error is the Pope.  And that's not 100% of the time, but only certain times. 

    If you think that the pope is spending his time reading/approving
    a.  every docuмent, sermon, book, pamphlet, booklet, flyer, etc
    b.  from every country
    c.  from every state/region
    d.  from every diocese
    e.  from every cleric, monk, priest, bishop, etc

    This is ludicrous.  It simply doesn't happen.

    What happens is that a priest passes on his book to HIS LOCAL BISHOP.  And the Bishop approves/disapproves of it.  And...
    a.  This approval is a negative approval,
    b.  i.e. imprimatur = nothing is contrary to the faith
    c.  An imprimatur doesn't mean it's 100% accurate, nor does it mean that the priest's opinion is accepted by the Church.
    d.  Especially in regards to theological speculation...since the Church hasn't defined the answer, then the entire book is theory.

    Just like AT THE TIME, St Thomas' view on the immaculate conception was allowed (because the doctrine hadn't been defined).  You can't retroactively say that St Thomas' book "contained error" because AT THE TIME, his views were allowed as theory.