Quote from: Cantarella

I take that back. Heretics are actually mentioned in Bellarmine's definition. They are also excluded and classified as infidels under the first category:

Quote from: Bellarmine

 By reason of the first part are excluded all infidels, as much those who have never been in the Church, like the Jews, Turks and Pagans; as those who have been and have fallen away, like heretics and apostates.

Sorry.  I responded to your earlier post before reading this.  No, it's quite clear that St. Robert Bellarmine excludes heretics from membership in the Church.  In fact, I have not found ONE Catholic theologian who did not.  Which is why I disagree with Father Wathen's OCAC theory.  No theologian has ever held this.  In fact, it's more in line with Vatican II thinking.  Cf. the recent comments by Bergoglio claiming that Protestants are members of the Church.  Dimond brothers called him out for heresy on this point, and they'd be correct.  I have great respect for Father Wathen, but he is NOT some kind of infallible god, and he CLEARLY got this wrong.  Stubborn defends him tooth and nail because he's one of the very few who truly believed in EENS, but I call it as I see it without respect for persons.  Truth comes first above loyalty to specific individuals.

Which once again leaves the question unanswered -  if OCAC is false, then at what point prior to going to confession, did the non-Catholic become Catholic?  

May Almighty God have mercy on thee, forgive thee thy sins, and bring thee to everlasting life. Amen.
 
May the almighty and merciful Lord grant thee pardon, absolution and remission of thy sins.

May Our Lord Jesus Christ absolve thee, and I by His authority do absolve thee from every bond of excommunication, or interdict (or suspension) as far as I am able and thou art needful.

I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

May the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all the Saints, whatever good thou shalt have done or evil endured, be for thee unto the remission of thy sins, the increase of grace, and the reward of everlasting life. Amen.

Behold the Traditional form of absolution:

Quote

May Almighty God have mercy on thee, forgive thee thy sins, and bring thee to everlasting life. Amen.
 
May the almighty and merciful Lord grant thee pardon, absolution and remission of thy sins.

May Our Lord Jesus Christ absolve thee, and I by His authority do absolve thee from every bond of excommunication, or interdict (or suspension) as far as I am able and thou art needful.

I absolve thee from thy sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

May the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all the Saints, whatever good thou shalt have done or evil endured, be for thee unto the remission of thy sins, the increase of grace, and the reward of everlasting life. Amen.

Quote from: Arvinger

Quote from: McCork

He is claiming the teaching included the word "explicit" to give all those Catholics from the birth of the Church to 1600 the clear message that "implicit" was condemned. There is ZERO evidence that the idea of "implicit" was condemned. It the same fallacy as the Greek Orthodox.

Can you quote any Church Father, Saint or theologian who taught the possibility of salvation for non-Christians through implicit faith before, say, year 1500?

Let me halt the quoting of your post right there. The traditional teaching has never taught that non-Christians are saved. If a person was a non-Christian, and unbeknownst to mankind suffered and died without verbally expressing anything, but nevertheless converted before God in his heart and will, then that man was no longer a non-Christian. Conversion ALWAYS starts in the unseen heart and will, and sometimes people die converted to Catholicism who never got to express evidence of that conversion to another man.

bump  

Thank you!