Author Topic: Baptismofdesire.com (Read 97061 times)

Jehanne · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2013, 02:45:50 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

They martyrology is full of saints who were martyred as catechumens before they were baptized.

The CMRI only lists two such martyrs:

Quote

January 23: At Rome, St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr, who was stoned by the heathen while still a catechumen, when she was praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, whose foster-sister she was.

April 12: At Braga, in Portugal, St. Victor, Martyr, who, while still yet a catechumen, refused to worship an idol, and confessed Christ Jesus with great constancy, and so after many torments, he merited to be baptized in his own blood, his head being cut off.

http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_quotes.shtml

Does the phrase "while still yet a caechumen" prove that the person in question was not sacramentally baptized? Was it possible to be a "catechumen", that is, someone "in training" for the Catholic faith, and yet still have received sacramental Baptism?

In any case, we're into trying to "prove negatives," again. Even in the case of Emperor Valentinian, we could assert, if only as a possibility, that he was, in fact, sacramentally baptized prior to his death and that Saint Ambrose was simply ignorant of that fact.

Stubborn · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2013, 03:02:18 PM »

Quote from: Mithrandylan

They martyrology is full of saints who were martyred as catechumens before they were baptized.

Mith,
St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.

It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to these glorious martyrs through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. *What we do not know is not a proof of anything*.

Further, if the Church honors anyone as a saint, *according to Her own teaching*, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2013, 10:57:35 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Whoever "knows nothing about baptism because he has never been educated about the true faith" certainly could not desire baptism because he knows nothing about it. One cannot desire for something he knows nothing about.

Again, this shows you do not understand the topic. Anyone who knows about Baptism knows it is needed to be saved, so they would immediately pursue it upon learning about it. Someone who knows nothing about Baptism (let's say a person on a remote island), but craves to do the will of God, and craves to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins, implicitly desires what is needed to be part of the true Church, and can be granted the grace of the sacrament through desire. THAT is the teaching of the Church. PLENTY of quotes from the Church stating this. Quotes from Pope Pius IX and Pope Pius X are on that website.

Quote from: Stubborn

Further, "A person in such a situation who knows nothing about baptism but yet believes there is a God, wanting to fulfill all that God wants of him to be saved, and has perfect contrition for his sins," if this imaginary person did exist, God would see to it that the person received the Sacrament - *that* is what the doctrine of Divine Providence teaches. "For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened."

The quote you gave here has nothing to do with God guaranteeing someone will receive Baptism if they want it. You've taken a quote and used it for your own fancy.

Quote from: Stubborn

The web page you posted is so full of errors that it should be removed from the web before it scandalizes more people than it may have already scandalized.

Name some.

saintbosco13 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 21, 2013, 11:05:25 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Does the phrase "while still yet a caechumen" prove that the person in question was not sacramentally baptized? Was it possible to be a "catechumen", that is, someone "in training" for the Catholic faith, and yet still have received sacramental Baptism?

Looking up the definition of "catechumen" in "A Catholic Dictionary", it is defined as "A non-baptized adult under instruction to be received into the Church; a learner. Catechumens receive ecclesiastical burial if they die without baptism through no fault of their own (cf., Baptism of desire)."

Stubborn · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2013, 04:14:33 AM »

The post will not format properly so I will simply answer without quoting your post above.

This topic is about salvation without the sacrament which, regardless of whatever else has been taught or whoever taught it - that the sacrament of baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation has already been infallibly defined so we can rest assured that there is no way around the necessity of it for salvation.

That "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" is also a teaching of the fathers of the Church - i.e. the "magisterium". As the name itself testifies, the "Baptism of Desire" is the mother of all "good intentions".

There is no salvation outside the Church means what it says - or it means nothing, the sacrament of Baptism is the only way one enters the Church - this has also been defined infallibly - so all other teachings and theological opinions must wholly submit to that which is infallible - "and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding." - Vatican Council 1