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Author Topic: Baptismofdesire.com  (Read 12285 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2021, 04:29:12 PM »
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    • Does anyone here contest the certainty that all who die justified are saved?
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #76 on: November 17, 2021, 05:01:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 17, 2021, 04:29:12 PM
    Does anyone here contest the certainty that all who die justified are saved?

    Uh oh.

    But not I, SJ . . . if there are such.


    Addendum:  My Adam A-hole is in rare form today; this time, it being stupid.


    No. Anyone who dies baptized is saved.

    Yeah . . . I read that 5 times now.

    Amendment/Addendum.2:

    :laugh2:

    I shoud have read it 6 times, at least:


    Anyone dying justified is saved. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #77 on: November 17, 2021, 05:08:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 17, 2021, 04:29:12 PM
    Does anyone here contest the certainty that all who die justified are saved?

    Well, yes, that's Father Feeney's classic position.

    It was actually XavierSem who found theologians who held that infidels, for example, could be justified but not saved.  So Father Feeney did not invent that distinction.

    Feeneyites do hold this, whereas Dimondites hold that there can be no justification without the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Father Feeney was asked what happens to those who die justified without Baptism, and he answered that he did not know.

    I hold that such would go to Limbo.  I have adduced evidence from the Church Fathers to back up this point, and it is the key to resolving St. Ambrose vs. St. Ambrose (some say that he contradicted himself, whereas I say he was making a distinction).
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #78 on: November 17, 2021, 05:17:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on November 17, 2021, 03:44:46 PM
    Nowhere have I said that "God will permit those not baptized to be ushered off into some lesser heaven (or hell) through their faith alone." In order to be "justified," the sinner will have to be "washed" or have the desire to be "washed." That is what Section 6, chapter 4 says in paraphrase.
    No, there is your error, that is not at what it says. It says justification cannot be effected without the laver or the desire. BODers like to read meaning into words that the words do not say - as you demonstrate.



    Quote
    Nowhere in the Canons on Justification does Trent mention the "sacrament of baptism." That is your invention. If what I say is untrue, produce the actual Canon on Justification with the anathema. As I have said, you resort to canons in Session 7 that do not refer to "justification" at all.
    Session 7, canon 4: [If anyone saith] "without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema."

    Where does it say with them or with the desire thereof men obtain justification?



    Quote
    I said "salvation" can have multiple meanings. I never said "damnation" has multiple meanings. And, I agree, "salvation" does mean "spending eternity in Heaven" (eventually) and "damnation means eternity in hell." However, some of us will take a detour to Purgatory before we get to Heaven. In one sense, those people in Purgatory are "saved" from "eternal damnation" but they are not "saved" from "the fires of hell" which cleanse the souls in Purgatory.
     
    If an adult dies unbaptized, that person goes to hell. It's that simple. "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous... let him be anathema."

    In saying the sacrament of baptism is not necessary for salvation, you're saying saying the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation - which Trent condemns.

    If one can be justified without the sacrament, and because they never received the sacrament end up in hell for all eternity, that makes being justified without the sacrament at least altogether superfluous.

    Can we at least agree on that?
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #79 on: November 17, 2021, 05:21:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 17, 2021, 05:08:06 PM
    Feeneyites do hold this, whereas Dimondites hold that there can be no justification without the Sacrament of Baptism.
    Per Trent, if the Dimonds hold to this, then the Dimonds are correct on this.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #80 on: November 17, 2021, 05:26:34 PM »
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    • OK, so we all agree that all who die justified are saved.

    Next question:

    Does anyone here believe only the (water) baptized can die justified?
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #81 on: November 17, 2021, 05:52:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on November 17, 2021, 04:21:08 PM
    Angelus,

    Sorry for the above. A lapse. I have some of Adam's A-hole in me.

    Now . . . if you think an explicit desire for the sacrament is not necessary for justification, how has the requirement for justification changed "since the promulgation of the gospel"? That is the qualifier Trent throws on the requirement of the laver or the desire: it is required "since the promulgation of the gospel."

    DR

    DR, Following Aquinas here, I do think that "an explicit desire for the sacrament is not necessary for justification." Before the promulgation of the gospel, the transition only took place when Christ descended into Hell and liberated the Just from the limbo of the Fathers. Now, the transition can take place by the Sacrament of Baptism, BoD and BoB. Although the transition by BoD is not complete in the same way that the Sacrament of Baptism is.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #82 on: November 17, 2021, 06:15:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 17, 2021, 05:26:34 PM
    OK, so we all agree that all who die justified are saved.

    No.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #83 on: November 17, 2021, 06:16:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 17, 2021, 05:17:49 PM
    If an adult dies unbaptized, that person goes to hell. It's that simple.

    No, unless you define Limbo as part of Hell, as some do.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #84 on: November 17, 2021, 06:17:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 17, 2021, 05:26:34 PM
    OK, so we all agree that all who die justified are saved.

    Next question:

    Does anyone here believe only the (water) baptized can die justified?

    As for your second question, some here do hold that only those who have actually received the Sacrament can be justified.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #85 on: November 17, 2021, 07:01:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 17, 2021, 05:17:49 PM
    No, there is your error, that is not at what it says. It says justification cannot be effected without the laver or the desire. BODers like to read meaning into words that the words do not say - as you demonstrate.


    Session 7, canon 4: [If anyone saith] "without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema."

    Where does it say with them or with the desire thereof men obtain justification?


    If an adult dies unbaptized, that person goes to hell. It's that simple. "If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous... let him be anathema."

    In saying the sacrament of baptism is not necessary for salvation, you're saying saying the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation - which Trent condemns.

    If one can be justified without the sacrament, and because they never received the sacrament end up in hell for all eternity, that makes being justified without the sacrament at least altogether superfluous.

    Can we at least agree on that?

    Please stop saying that I said "the sacrament of baptism is not necessary for salvation," I never said that. You are spreading lies.

    The Session 7, canon 4 should read:

    Quote
    If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but that they are superfluous; and that without the sacraments or the desire for them men obtain from God the grace of justification through faith alone (although it is true that not all the sacraments are necessary for each person), let him be anathema.

    That canon is directed at those who promote "justification by faith alone." I don't promote that. But you should note that the Canon supports the idea that by "the desire for [the sacraments]" men can obtain from God the grace of Justification.


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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #86 on: November 17, 2021, 08:09:38 PM »
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    • Quote
    Please stop saying that I said "the sacrament of baptism is not necessary for salvation," I never said that. You are spreading lies.

    The Session 7, canon 4 should read:
    Quote
    Quote
    If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but that they are superfluous; and that without the sacraments or the desire for them men obtain from God the grace of justification through faith alone (although it is true that not all the sacraments are necessary for each person), let him be anathema.


    That canon is directed at those who promote "justification by faith alone." I don't promote that. But you should note that the Canon supports the idea that by "the desire for [the sacraments]" men can obtain from God the grace of Justification.

    You don't get it. This canon states in it's very first sentence that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. Do you see that? I bolded and underlined it so you should see it.

    Now, if one is able to be justified without the sacrament as you believe, but dies without ever having received it, per Trent he cannot not attain salvation, instead he goes to hell - because that person died without what Trent just said is necessary for salvation, i.e. the sacrament.
     
    The moral of the story is, it would be a total failure to die in the state of justification without the sacrament because one who dies in that state, per Trent, does not attain salvation, which is why without the sacrament, justification cannot be effected - as it says in session 6. 

    It is really not the least bit complicated.

    We know from session 6 what the above canon cannot be talking about, it cannot be talking about the sacrament of baptism, but it can be talking about the sacrament of penance and perhaps the holy Eucharist, as both of those sacraments are able to take away sins without actually receiving those sacraments. Penance via perfect contrition and spiritual communion might remove venial sin. But neither will remove any sin without first having received the sacrament of baptism. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #87 on: November 17, 2021, 08:12:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 17, 2021, 05:26:34 PM
    OK, so we all agree that all who die justified are saved.

    Next question:

    Does anyone here believe only the (water) baptized can die justified?
    Yes and yes, justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, i.e. the sacrament of baptism. Which is to say only the (water) baptized can die justified.
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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #88 on: November 17, 2021, 09:18:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 17, 2021, 08:12:07 PM
    Yes and yes, justification cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, i.e. the sacrament of baptism. Which is to say only the (water) baptized can die justified.

    Right, as I explained, there are two schools of thought here:

    Feeneyite:  people can die in justification, but require actual reception of the Sacrament to be saved (although I believe in practice Father Feeney believed that would not happen and was just addressing the hypothetical)

    Dimondite:  there's no justification (and therefore no salvation) without actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    I used to lean toward the latter, but then a reading of St. Ambrose and the arguments of post-Tridentine theologians that there can be justification without salvation, won me over to the Father Feeney position.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #89 on: November 18, 2021, 04:48:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 17, 2021, 09:18:53 PM
    Right, as I explained, there are two schools of thought here:

    Feeneyite:  people can die in justification, but require actual reception of the Sacrament to be saved (although I believe in practice Father Feeney believed that would not happen and was just addressing the hypothetical)

    Dimondite:  there's no justification (and therefore no salvation) without actual reception of the Sacrament of Baptism.

    I used to lean toward the latter, but then a reading of St. Ambrose and the arguments of post-Tridentine theologians that there can be justification without salvation, won me over to the Father Feeney position.
    And I used to agree with Fr. Feeney's hypothetical, and you're right, it was only hypothetical, he did not believe it could ever happen. In that aspect I agree with him. It simply goes against Catholic reason for the infidel to die justified, but without the sacrament he cannot attain heaven. Why bother? One cannot be justified without the sacrament because Trent said that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament. There's no mystery to this, it's told to us in a very clear and blunt manner.

    I don't know but I believe people insist a BOD is a doctrine of the Church mainly because of the catechisms, which means they already have a preconceived idea implanted in the front of their mind, so that when they read Trent, their preconceived notion tricks them into reading meanings into Trent's teachings which the teachings simply do not say.

     

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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