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Author Topic: Baptismofdesire.com  (Read 5147 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2021, 12:53:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 16, 2021, 12:21:02 PM
    "Traduttore, traditore" (A translator is a traitor). 

    Is it probable? Is it probable!) that Ladislaus caught a "mistake" which all the pre-conciliar vernacular translations of the world missed for centuries (and which all the traditionalist Latin speaking clergy continue to miss to this day)? 

    The 1st year Latin student is capable of applying several different translations to every word in the Latin language, and then concluding the one which best meats his agenda is the "technically more proper and correct" translation.

    "Traduttore, traditore."

    This person is doing the same thing: He wants to translate Bellarmine's use of the word "voto" as "resolution" to avoid having him say "desire," in order to construe a different meaning from the phrase:

    St. Robert Bellarmine, De Ecclesia Militante:
    “Concerning catechumens there is a GREATER DIFFICULTY, because they are faithful [have the faith] and can be saved if they die in this state, and yet outside the Church no one is saved… THE CATECHUMENS ARE IN THE CHURCH, THOUGH NOT IN ACTUAL FACT, yet at least in resolution, therefore they can be saved…”
    [De Ecclesia Militante, Book III, Ch. 3, opera omnia, Naples 1872, p. 75; ]
    https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?action=post;quote=784946;topic=64953.0 

    However you want to cut it, St .Bellarmine is saying they are saved without water.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #16 on: November 16, 2021, 12:58:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 16, 2021, 12:32:32 PM
    He misquotes both Trent and St. Alphonsus, which makes his quote a lie.

    Please demonstrate the lie.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #17 on: November 16, 2021, 12:59:23 PM »
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    • Trent: "And this translation [to justification], since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration..."

    However you want to cut it, Trent is saying they are not saved without water.




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    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #18 on: November 16, 2021, 01:00:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 16, 2021, 12:59:23 PM
    Trent: "And this translation [to justification], since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration..."

    However you want to cut it, Trent is saying they are not saved without water.



    The implication being St. Robert Bellarmine (who taught salvation without water baptism, above) was a heretic?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #19 on: November 16, 2021, 01:06:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 16, 2021, 12:58:04 PM
    Please demonstrate the lie.
    First, the lie from bod.com:
    "...the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire". St. Alphonsus Liguori also states above, "Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire"

    The truth is........

    St. Alphonsus:
    "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)." - An Exposition and Defense of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.


    Trent on the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace:
    "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #20 on: November 16, 2021, 01:07:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 16, 2021, 01:00:40 PM
    The implication being St. Robert Bellarmine (who taught salvation without water baptism, above) was a heretic?
    No, not any more than Trent was heretical. But one thing is certain, one of them is wrong. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #21 on: November 16, 2021, 01:11:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 16, 2021, 01:07:34 PM
    No, not any more than Trent was heretical. But one thing is certain, one of them is wrong.

    Am I misunderstanding you?

    Are you saying that either Trent, or St. Robert Bellarmine (Doctor of the Church), is wrong??
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    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #22 on: November 16, 2021, 01:20:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Änσnymσus on November 16, 2021, 12:21:02 PM
    "Traduttore, traditore" (A translator is a traitor). 

    Is it probable? Is it probable!) that Ladislaus caught a "mistake" which all the pre-conciliar vernacular translations of the world missed for centuries (and which all the traditionalist Latin speaking clergy continue to miss to this day)? 

    The 1st year Latin student is capable of applying several different translations to every word in the Latin language, and then concluding the one which best meats his agenda is the "technically more proper and correct" translation.

    "Traduttore, traditore."

    Not necessarily so. English is a language that has changed quite significantly over time. Perhaps the meaning of the word "desire" had a stronger connotation with a firm resolution like the word "vow" means in the past, but has now changed to the point where "desire" can mean a strong resolution or a vague inclination towards a certain thing. What could be happening is that the word desire is a correct translation to use, but the definition in our time is more ambiguous than what it was traditionally. Therefore, to use a similar word (vow) that still retains a clear definition may simply be an easy way of clarifying the original intended meaning of the docuмent. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #23 on: November 16, 2021, 01:21:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 16, 2021, 01:11:03 PM
    Am I misunderstanding you?

    Are you saying that either Trent, or St. Robert Bellarmine (Doctor of the Church), is wrong??
    I am actually saying St. Robert is wrong, not heretical. The reason for this is because Trent taught, as I posted above, that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament. Which is to say desiring the sacrament is just as insufficient for justification as not receiving the sacrament. *That* is what Trent taught, not what a BOD.com conveniently misquotes to suit their own narrative.


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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #24 on: November 16, 2021, 01:22:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 16, 2021, 01:21:11 PM
    I am actually saying St. Robert is wrong, not heretical. The reason for this is because Trent taught, as I posted above, that justification cannot be effected without the sacrament or the desire for the sacrament. Which is to say desiring the sacrament is just as insufficient for justification as not receiving the sacrament. *That* is what Trent taught, not what a BOD.com conveniently misquotes to suit their own narrative.

    So, if I say men can be saved without water baptism, its not heretical?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #25 on: November 16, 2021, 01:27:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: StLouisIX on November 16, 2021, 01:20:47 PM
    Not necessarily so. English is a language that has changed quite significantly over time. Perhaps the meaning of the word "desire" had a stronger connotation with a firm resolution like the word "vow" means in the past, but has now changed to the point where "desire" can mean a strong resolution or a vague inclination towards a certain thing. What could be happening is that the word desire is a correct translation to use, but the definition in our time is more ambiguous than what it was traditionally. Therefore, to use a similar word (vow) that still retains a clear definition may simply be an easy way of clarifying the original intended meaning of the docuмent.

    Just using common sense, I intuit that were this really the case, some priest, somewhere on the planet, would have caught that before Ladislaus did.  

    I'm not even close to being convinced.

    When I see Lefebvre, the SSPX, almost all sedevacantist groups, the Resistance, and countless translations of the saints, popes, doctors, and councils produced in the last 100 years -without a single one of them making the contrived argument Ladislaus does- I say within myself, "The probability of that explanation being correct is next to nothing, or in fact, nothing."
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #26 on: November 16, 2021, 01:33:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: StLouisIX on November 16, 2021, 01:20:47 PM
    Not necessarily so. English is a language that has changed quite significantly over time. Perhaps the meaning of the word "desire" had a stronger connotation with a firm resolution like the word "vow" means in the past, but has now changed to the point where "desire" can mean a strong resolution or a vague inclination towards a certain thing. What could be happening is that the word desire is a correct translation to use, but the definition in our time is more ambiguous than what it was traditionally. Therefore, to use a similar word (vow) that still retains a clear definition may simply be an easy way of clarifying the original intended meaning of the docuмent.
    No StLouisIX, "desire" or "vow" or whatever - it does not matter. Pursuing it from that angle leads to nowhere really, except perhaps more debates.

    The only two places in Trent that the "desire thereof" is mentioned is the 6th session, which is strictly on the sacrament of baptism, and also the 7th session, which is about all of the sacraments in general.

    It is the 6th session where Trent teaches there can be no justification without the laver of regeneration and no justification *with* the desire thereof i.e. justification "cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof."

    The 7th session does not teach salvation or justification with the sacraments or desire, only that without one or the other, justification cannot happen, and whoever says justification does happen without either, is condemned with anathema.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #27 on: November 16, 2021, 01:36:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 16, 2021, 01:22:46 PM
    So, if I say men can be saved without water baptism, its not heretical?
    I believe that teaching is indeed heretical because it contradicts Trent's teaching. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #28 on: November 16, 2021, 01:47:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on November 16, 2021, 01:36:57 PM
    I believe that teaching is indeed heretical because it contradicts Trent's teaching.

    So, when St. Bellarmine says it, it is not heretical, but when I say it, it becomes heretical.

    Do you see a problem with that?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #29 on: November 16, 2021, 01:50:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 16, 2021, 01:47:51 PM
    So, when St. Bellarmine says it, it is not heretical, but when I say it, it becomes heretical.

    Do you see a problem with that?
    I don't know that St. Robert knew any better, which imo means he was simply mistaken, by now you should know better. That's the only problem.
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