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Author Topic: Baptismofdesire.com  (Read 5152 times)

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Baptismofdesire.com
« on: November 16, 2021, 11:43:56 AM »
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  • Baptismofdesire.com is awesome, and counters many of the typical Feeneyite arguments, as well as supplying a consistent list of saints, fathers, doctors, popes, and councils in support of BOD.


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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #1 on: November 16, 2021, 11:46:36 AM »
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  • The man who runs that site used to post here. He said if you hold the version of BOD held by St. Alphonsus Liguori you are a feeneyite heretic.


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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #2 on: November 16, 2021, 11:47:14 AM »
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  • After LOT left he was the main BOD supporter on Cathninfo for a number of months.

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #3 on: November 16, 2021, 11:49:37 AM »
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  • He (or his site) says:

    Common Arguments
     
    1.  The Council of Trent did not speak about Baptism of Desire.

    Some have tried to argue that the Council of Trent did not speak of Baptism of Desire, so as to try and remove the only example of solemn teaching on the subject, leaving all other examples above as ordinary teaching. First, you'll notice in the quotes above that St. Robert Bellarmine states, "...the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire". St. Alphonsus Liguori also states above, "Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4...". The quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia above also states, “This doctrine (baptism of desire) is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent". And the quote from the Letter of the Holy Office above also states, "This (Sacrament through desire) we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent..." So it is obvious the Holy Office, these two Doctors of the Church, and the Catholic Encyclopedia state otherwise. As for those who try to discredit the Catholic Encyclopedia; over 1500 clergy, professors, authors etc. from around the world contributed to its compilation, in addition to it containing an imprimatur, so it is considered a trusted Catholic reference.

    Regardless of these facts, we can clearly see from the definitions of the Magisterium above, that whether the Council of Trent spoke of this doctrine or not is irrelevant, since we can see the Ordinary magisterium (also infallible) has also taught it repeatedly century after century.




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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #4 on: November 16, 2021, 11:50:44 AM »
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  • His version of BOD was basically "baptism is meaningless and one does not have to have the faith to have BOD. It can save anyone no matter what they believe, with the possible exception of atheists."


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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #5 on: November 16, 2021, 11:52:21 AM »
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  • He (or his site) says:

    Common Arguments
     
    1.  The Council of Trent did not speak about Baptism of Desire.

    Some have tried to argue that the Council of Trent did not speak of Baptism of Desire, so as to try and remove the only example of solemn teaching on the subject, leaving all other examples above as ordinary teaching. First, you'll notice in the quotes above that St. Robert Bellarmine states, "...the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, says that Baptism is necessary in fact or in desire". St. Alphonsus Liguori also states above, "Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4...". The quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia above also states, “This doctrine (baptism of desire) is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent". And the quote from the Letter of the Holy Office above also states, "This (Sacrament through desire) we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent..." So it is obvious the Holy Office, these two Doctors of the Church, and the Catholic Encyclopedia state otherwise. As for those who try to discredit the Catholic Encyclopedia; over 1500 clergy, professors, authors etc. from around the world contributed to its compilation, in addition to it containing an imprimatur, so it is considered a trusted Catholic reference.

    Regardless of these facts, we can clearly see from the definitions of the Magisterium above, that whether the Council of Trent spoke of this doctrine or not is irrelevant, since we can see the Ordinary magisterium (also infallible) has also taught it repeatedly century after century.


    That's a pretty good argument I think.

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #6 on: November 16, 2021, 11:55:13 AM »
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  • Trent teaches there is no spiritual regeneration without water.  Desire alone is faith alone, a notion that belongs in hell with Luther.  

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #7 on: November 16, 2021, 12:02:54 PM »
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  • Trent teaches there is no spiritual regeneration without water.  Desire alone is faith alone, a notion that belongs in hell with Luther. 

    Why do the two doctors of the Church mentioned in the quote above teach damnable Lutheran doctrine?


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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #8 on: November 16, 2021, 12:04:32 PM »
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  • Trent teaches there is no spiritual regeneration without water.  Desire alone is faith alone, a notion that belongs in hell with Luther. 

    It would be good if the Feeneyites could refute St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus Liguori (in addition to the 40 other saints and popes cited on this excellent website.

    I hope they will also refute the Council of Trent.

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #9 on: November 16, 2021, 12:04:59 PM »
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  • What is a LOT???

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #10 on: November 16, 2021, 12:09:15 PM »
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  • This thread is very helpful on this subject: https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/trent-and-justification/


    Pay special attention here to Ladislaus' posts. What is commonly translated as "desire" in that quote from Trent is better understood as being like a vow (votum). Desire is a more ambiguous word in English, as he explains. Quote from him in that thread: 


    Quote
    Ladislaus, Reply #11

    I initially believed in Baptism of Desire simply because I thought that Trent taught it.  So one day I happened to be reading Trent's entire treatise on justification in Latin.  What I found was that this particular quotation had been lifted out of its entire context.  If you read the entire thing, a picture emerges.  What Trent is teaching, against the prevalent Protestant errors, is in fact the necessity of cooperation between grace and free will.  Grace is given freely, but then the WILL must must cooperate.  So the ENTIRE POINT of the Treatise is that BOTH grace ex opere operato AND the cooperation of the WILL are necessary.  So it would seem strange then for Trent to be teaching the whole time that both grace and will are necessary, and then suddenly to switch gears and say ... but grace OR free will are necessary for justification.  There's even a Canon in Trent which condemns the proposition that one is justified by Baptism even without the intention/desire to receive the Sacrament.

    Now, the word commonly translated as "desire" is actually the Latin votum, which is a noun form of the Latin verb that means "to will".  Desire is a watered down translation made, IMO deliberately, to weaken its force.  It's more like a "vow" (our word "vow" also comes from the same Latin root).  Let me give an example.  I can DESIRE all I want to get married, but that does not mean I am married.  I can get engaged, set a date, rent out the reception hall, hire a photographer, have every intention and desire to get married, but then bail out five minutes before pronouncing my "vows" ... and I am not and never was married.  There must be some FORMALIZATION of this intention.  Now, one could argue that a catechumen could be close to having this kind of will/intention/vow to get baptized.  So in order to make BoD apply to all manner of infidels, the force of it had to be weakened.  Even St. Robert Bellarmine explicitly limited BoD to the catechumen.

    In any case, on its face, the expression, "I cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball," is ambiguous.  You COULD take it that I cannot play baseball without having EITHER a bat OR a ball.  Or you could take it as meaning that I cannot play if EITHER is MISSING.  So on the surface, you could take it the BoD way, or else you could take it the way I read it.  But if you take the VERY NEXT SENTENCE of Trent, this sentence is immediately disambiguated ... in favor of MY reading of it.

    To paraphrase, justification cannot happen without the laver or the desire, for Jesus taught that, in order to be born again, one must be born of water AND the Holy Spirit.  This is clearly making the following analogy (if you recall analogy format from the SAT) --

    laver:desire::water:Holy Spirit (laver is to desire what water is to the Holy Spirit). 

    Trent deliberately uses the descriptive term "laver" instead of, say, the Sacrament, precisely to drive home the analogy with this teaching and Our Lord's "water AND the Holy Spirit".  See, again, if you read the entire context, Trent had just spent several paragraphs explaining how it is the Holy Spirt who INSPIRES this cooperation of the will.

    So to take this passage the BoD way would be to say:  I can play baseball with either a bat or a ball, since the coach said that I must have a bat AND a ball to play baseball.  It's ridiculous on the face of it.

    Water AND the Holy Spirit immediately disambiguates the "not without the laver or the will for it" into my reading of it, and not the BoD meaning.

    I stand by this reading of Trent as absolutely the only one that makes sense.  As for why other theologians didn't read it this way.  Well, St. Alphonsus actually cites teaching on the intention to receive CONFESSION (combined with perfect contrition) as sufficing to RESTORE someone to justification after it has been lost through sin.  But if you look at the passage on confession, Trent explicitly states, "EITHER ... OR".  If Trent were teaching the same thing here, you would have expected the exact same unambiguous phraseology, "EITHER the laver OR ELSE the desire".  But it's not there in the passage regarding Baptism.  In theology manuals AFTER the Council of Trent that were used in seminaries, BoD was still presented as a disputed question, with BoD referred to as the "Augustinian" position (by contrast with other Fathers who rejected it).  So in the immediate aftermath of Trent, this passage was NOT in fact read as closing the debate on BoD.  One or another theologian first read this as promoting/endorsing Baptism of Desire ... and then everyone else simply followed along and made that assumption without re-examining that interpretation.

    So, if someone could persuade me that the sentence, "I cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball, since the coach said that I have to have a bat and a ball to play baseball," actually means that I can play baseball with EITHER a bat OR a ball, then you could convince me that Trent teaches BoD in this passage.
     



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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #11 on: November 16, 2021, 12:10:12 PM »
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  • What is a LOT???
    LOT is short for a member here called "Lover of Truth". He stopped posting regularly a while ago. He was the main defender of Baptism of Desire here and his Feeneyite opponents called him "Lover of Lies" or "Lover of Error" of "Lover of Heresy." Pray for him as I think he recently came back to the forum to ask for prayers because he may lose his job for not taking the dead baby death vaxx. So he is a hero now.

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #12 on: November 16, 2021, 12:21:02 PM »
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  • This thread is very helpful on this subject: https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/trent-and-justification/


    Pay special attention here to Ladislaus' posts. What is commonly translated as "desire" in that quote from Trent is better understood as being like a vow (votum). Desire is a more ambiguous word in English, as he explains. Quote from him in that thread:

     
    "Traduttore, traditore" (A translator is a traitor). 

    Is it probable? Is it probable!) that Ladislaus caught a "mistake" which all the pre-conciliar vernacular translations of the world missed for centuries (and which all the traditionalist Latin speaking clergy continue to miss to this day)?  

    The 1st year Latin student is capable of applying several different translations to every word in the Latin language, and then concluding the one which best meats his agenda is the "technically more proper and correct" translation.

    "Traduttore, traditore."

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #13 on: November 16, 2021, 12:32:32 PM »
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  • That's a pretty good argument I think.
    He misquotes both Trent and St. Alphonsus, which makes his quote a lie.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Baptismofdesire.com
    « Reply #14 on: November 16, 2021, 12:51:15 PM »
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  • Party's over, guys. Next post will have to be posted with your pseudonym next to it. ::)

    There is NOTHING in this thread that needs to be anonymous. No abusing the anonymous subforum.
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