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Author Topic: Baptismofdesire.com  (Read 16485 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2021, 07:06:13 AM »
SJ is like all BODers who cannot acknowledge the obvious contradictions between Trent and the catechisms/what some of the Fathers taught. I think it goes back to what I said re preconceived ideas. It's amazing how that works so well, it is actually blinding.

Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2021, 07:15:02 AM »
SJ is like all BODers who cannot acknowledge the obvious contradictions between Trent and the catechisms/what some of the Fathers taught. I think it goes back to what I said re preconceived ideas. It's amazing how that works so well, it is actually blinding.

Wow.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2021, 07:22:01 AM »
1. God exists.
2. God “is a rewarder to them that seek him” (Hebrews 11:6).
3. The Holy Trinity.
4. The Incarnation.

He says explicit belief in the first two is certainly necessary, while explicit belief in the last two is necessary according to the more common and more probable opinion, but he explains why the contrary opinion is “also quite probable.”

And I strongly disagree with St. Alphonsus that Rewarder God theory is probable.  He only held that out of respect for De Lugo, with whom he was friends.  Simple fact of the matter is that for the first 1500 years of Church history, there was unanimous dogmatic consensus that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  If that wasn't a dogmatic teaching of the OUM, then there's no such thing.  Rewarder God theory was invented to explain the plight of those in the recently-discovered new world, based on emotional reasoning such as was expressed by Father Cekada (that he can't possibly come to accept that all thoe people were lost).  There's no actual theological foundation for it; it's rooted entirely in emotional considerations.  There's nothing probable about that opinion.

In fact, the Holy Office explicitly rejected Rewarder God theory, stating that it was necessary by necessity of means to believe in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  I'll assume that St. Alphonsus was not aware of that ruling from the Holy Office.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2021, 08:39:22 AM »
Quote
1. God exists.
2. God “is a rewarder to them that seek him” (Hebrews 11:6).
3. The Holy Trinity.
4. The Incarnation.

He says explicit belief in the first two is certainly necessary, while explicit belief in the last two is necessary according to the more common and more probable opinion, but he explains why the contrary opinion is “also quite probable."
This is misleading because you fail to explain the difference between "explicit" (saying your belief out loud) vs "implicit" (not openly speaking your belief).  Even if you argue that #3 and #4 do not require explicit/verbal expression of this belief, it is "de fide" that one is absolutely required to have implicit/interior belief of these 2 doctrines.  Even St Alphonsus said so.


The heresy of the modernists is to say that belief in #1 and #2 INCLUDES the belief in #3 and #4.  But this is totally anti-catholic and anti-St Alphonsus.

The debate over the necessity of explicit/open/clear/public Faith in Catholicism can be solved from Scripture, as Christ told us that a "confession of Faith" (i.e. public/open) is necessary:

Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. 33But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven. (Matt 10:32-33)

And I say to you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God. 9But he that shall deny me before men, shall be denied before the angels of God. (Luke 12: 8-9)

Those who receive the sacrament of baptism have confessed their allegiance to Christ BEFORE MEN.  Those who only have implicit faith (who have not expressed their Faith to men) have not earned salvation.  They certainly haven't denied Christ but they also haven't confessed allegiance to Him.  Thus, as Ladislaus has pointed out, St Ambrose's teaching (washed but not crowned) that these "BOD in-betweeners" would not suffer hell, but also would not gain heaven.  Thus, Limbo.

Offline Tradman

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Re: Baptismofdesire.com
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2021, 08:52:20 AM »
"This is why I have concluded that people like, say, unbaptized martyrs (assuming there were any ... St. Ambrose seems to take it for granted that there were some)..."

Seems the first thing the Church would do before the canonization process is verify baptism.