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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39717 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #145 on: February 24, 2021, 12:16:06 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 24, 2021, 12:05:20 PM
Last Tradhican, why don't you address the Catechism of the Council of Trent, approved by Pope St. Pius V, that was quoted above?
What for? It matters little to discuss details with someone who believes that no matter what kind of life anyone lives, or what god they worship, or whether they are not baptized, they can be miraculously saved in the last seconds by Christ scaring them to convert, and then they go to Heaven. "All nice people can be saved that way".
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #146 on: February 24, 2021, 12:25:13 PM »
You obviously didn't read what I quoted: "In like manner, suppose a person living in a false religion dies without giving any sign of embracing the true faith, or without being reconciled to the Church of Christ, we can never say of such an one with certainty that he is lost; all that we can say must be under the same condition as in the other case: if he has actually died as he lived, separated from the true Church of Christ and without the true faith of Christ, he cannot be saved. But if God, of His great mercy, has given him in his last moments light and grace [as Pope Bl. Pius IX also taught] to see and embrace the true faith, AND he has corresponded with so great a favor as God requires, he will be saved...." This was Bp. Hay's Catechism. Fr. Mueller's, which you quoted me quoting above, teaches the same thing. How is it so many approved Catechisms teach the same thing if they are all wrong? It doesn't mean anyone is automatically saved. It just means that, by an extraordinary miracle, in response to the prayers of the Church, God may choose to save some.

The Church prays daily for souls near death to be saved, for the just to gain perseverance, for sinners to be converted. Her Priests and Her faithful offer up many prayers and sacrifices. Not all we desire to save will be saved, but some will be.

God will not completely reject the prayers of His Church and Her faithful to save souls, especially when they make sacrifices for it, as Our Lady of Fatima taught. It's not our duty to pronounce final judgment on anyone, but to pray for all.

God alone knows with certainty how He will apportion the graces of our prayers. Some will respond to Grace and convert. Some will not.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #147 on: February 24, 2021, 12:46:21 PM »
Quote from: XavierSem on February 24, 2021, 12:25:13 PM
It just means that, by an extraordinary miracle, in response to the prayers of the Church, God may choose to save some.
XavierSem once again confirms his bottom line end run belief, that an extraordinary miracle can bypass all the dogmas and save a person.

- as he has admitted, a person that does not belong to the Body Church. BUT then he invents  a "loophole", the soul of the Church, an invisible church of nice people,  to which the person converted by the miracle belongs,  and therefore the person goes straight to heaven without the baptismal character.

- even a person that showed no sign his whole life of wanting to be a Catholic or believe in Christ and the Trinity, indeed as a Jew, Muslim they despise the Church, Christ, and the Trinity.

- a person who dies by "accident", so God has to perform a miracle in the last fraction of a second of life.

It all matters not because they will be miraculously saved  by "an extraordinary miracle".


Quote
I, XavierSem, don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and I confess that those who die as infidels are lost. However, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God miraculously appeared to them and scared them to convert or go to hell.  Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

XavierSem says - Outside of the Church there is no salvation, but there are also the soul of the Church people who are not baptized, yes, that's what the soul of the Church is, a bunch of unbaptized nice people, but the Holy Ghost forgot to inspire the councils and popes to include that any dogmatic decrees of EENS, but I, the great XavierSem, discovered the omission  on the internet.
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #148 on: February 24, 2021, 01:40:17 PM »
Question for LastTrad and Ladislaus (or other orthodox persons):  Is it possible that there are 2 kinds of justification? 
.
1) Catholic justification, which comes from the sacrament of baptism, which includes removal of original sin and all other sins, plus temporal punishment.
.
2) non-catholic justification, wherein original sin remains but all actual sins were removed due to repentance.  Example: A heathen starts going to a protestant church and repents of sins, while still not being baptized.  Example 2:  Jonah preached repentance to the pagan city of Ninevah.  Example 3:  The Old Testament just still had Original Sin on their souls, did they not?
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #149 on: February 24, 2021, 03:21:32 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 24, 2021, 01:40:17 PM
Question for LastTrad and Ladislaus (or other orthodox persons):  Is it possible that there are 2 kinds of justification?  
.
1) Catholic justification, which comes from the sacrament of baptism, which includes removal of original sin and all other sins, plus temporal punishment.
.
2) non-catholic justification, wherein original sin remains but all actual sins were removed due to repentance.  Example: A heathen starts going to a protestant church and repents of sins, while still not being baptized.  Example 2:  Jonah preached repentance to the pagan city of Ninevah.  Example 3:  The Old Testament just still had Original Sin on their souls, did they not?
Who is the author of life and death? To the believers in BOD & BOB of any kind, one comes to life by chance and dies by chance. To the believer in BOD & BOB, a person learns the faith and gets baptized by his own work. Therefore, to the believer in BOD & BOB, a person could go all the way to the baptismal font by his own volition, and if he was by chance killed before being baptized, he would be saved by his desire. Basically, the BODer gratuitously, without the sacrament of baptism,  justifies a person of any false religion, removes all sin, that is original sin and actual sins, then kills him and asks what happens to him? Then they answer that they go to heaven by BOD.

 I do not believe in BOD & BOB because I believe that God is the author of life and death, and no one by is born by coincidence at the time and the place where they are born (for instance, in pre-Columbian Americas) and no one can even begin to seek the true faith without God's Grace, let alone go all the way up to the baptismal font. And God can allow a person to live 100 years if that is what is required for the baptism.

Whether a person is justified one second before the water of baptism drops on his head or he is not justified till he receives the water and the few words are said (which all takes like 3 seconds time) matters naught, for God can provide his elect with the time (100 years) and the grace to convert and be baptized.

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