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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39674 times)

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #140 on: February 24, 2021, 11:46:18 AM »
Last Tradhican, nice strawman. I don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.
Translation to the truth:


Quote
I, XavierSem, don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and I confess that those who die as infidels are lost. However, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God miraculously appeared to them and scared them to convert or go to hell.  Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

Now there's perfect example of an end run around all the dogmas on EENS and baptism.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2021, 11:51:28 AM »
Catechisms aren't infallible. .....  You can see the liberalism in the Baltimore Catechism and even in the fake translated versions of the St Pius X's catechism.
There, that's better


Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2021, 12:05:20 PM »
Last Tradhican, why don't you address the Catechism of the Council of Trent, approved by Pope St. Pius V, that was quoted above? Your position requries you to believe the Pope contradicted the Council that he had just presided over! Oh, the many absurdities of Dimondism! Pope St. Pius V also pre-emptively condemned your neo-Jansenist opinions in the Jansenist Baius, as the CE mentions.

More on that later perhaps. Now, here is Bp. Hay. From: http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/feeneyism/three_baptisms.htm

Is baptism of desire contrary to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus?
Bishop George Hay, Bishop of Edinburgh, Scotland (d. 1811), in his excellent Catechism, The Sincere Christian, devotes a good portion of Volume II of the work to the question of salvation out of the Church. He says that it is impossible to be saved outside the Church, because the Church is the rule or measure of faith, without which faith it is impossible to attain heaven. Natural good will is not enough to be saved. Anyone who dies with natural good will alone cannot be saved. However, if God gives the grace to embrace the true faith, and one accepts - that is baptism of desire - he is truly a member of the Church, and can therefore be saved inside the Church. In Volume I he explicitly affirms that baptism of desire saves souls who cannot receive baptism of water. Let us conclude this article with the teaching of this great bishop:
Quote
In like manner, suppose a person living in a false religion dies without giving any sign of embracing the true faith, or without being reconciled to the Church of Christ, we can never say of such an one with certainty that he is lost; all that we can say must be under the same condition as in the other case: if he has actually died as he lived, separated from the true Church of Christ and without the true faith of Christ, he cannot be saved. But if God, of His great mercy, has given him in his last moments light and grace to see and embrace the true faith, and he has corresponded with so great a favor as God requires, he will be saved....
Q. 28. But, in the case proposed, if a person in his last moments shall receive the light of faith from God, and embrace it with all his heart, would this suffice to make him a member of the true Church in the sight of God?
A. Most undoubtedly; the case is the same in this as in that of baptism. Though Jesus Christ expressly says, "Except a man be born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:5), which establishes the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation; yet, suppose a heathen should be instructed in the faith of Christ, and embrace it with all his heart, but die suddenly without baptism ... in the above dispositions with sincere repentance and a desire for baptism, this person will undoubtedly receive all the fruits of baptism from God, and therefore is said to be baptized in desire. In like manner, suppose a person brought up in a false religion embraces the true faith, which God gives him in his last moments - as it is absolutely impossible for him in that state to join the external communion of the Church in the eyes of men, yet he certainly will be considered united to her in the sight of God, by means of the true faith which he embraces, and his desire of being united to the Church, were it in his power.  (Sincere Christian, Vol. 2, pp.322-323.).

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2021, 12:06:08 PM »

I don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.
Translation to truth:


Quote
I, XavierSem, don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and I confess that those who die as infidels are lost. However, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God miraculously appeared to them and scared them to convert or go to hell.  Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

XavierSem says - Outside of the Church there is no salvation, but there are also the soul of the Church people who are not baptized, yes, that's what the soul of the Church is, a bunch of unbaptized nice people, but the Holy Ghost forgot to inspire the councils and popes to include that any dogmatic decrees of EENS, but I, the great XavierSem, discovered the omission  on the internet.


Here was XavierSem teaching the above two translations, in the case here of a Jew (it could just as well have been a Muslim,  Hindu, Buddhist etc):


Quote

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.


Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.


Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.


Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.



Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #144 on: February 24, 2021, 12:14:01 PM »
LOL. You obviously don't know what St. Thomas means by "Interior Illumination" of conscience. Hint: it isn't the absurd caricature you made of it in your brief (and laughable) "translation" above. It is what I explained from Fr. Mueller and Bp. Hay in approved Catechisms.

The Council of Trent itself proves Baptism of Desire, in at least 3 ways, when read carefully. I'll try to explain that when I have time. For now, the Roman Catechism and the many sources pertaining to the OUM post-Council of Trent should be enough of an explanation.